User talk:Trogga

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Contents 1 In Development 2 Stub/Attention 3 Talk page headings 4 Muppet Central pic 5 Main Page Edits 6 Welcome!

In Development

Hi, Ian! I wanted to explain why we don't include other categories for articles in the In Development category.

I took out the link on Fraggle Rock (movie) to Henson Company Movies. When you added it back, you said: "Yes, but it's going to be made by them." That's actually the reason why we don't put In Development stuff in other categories -- because we don't know whether it's going to be made or not.

There have been lots of movies and TV shows that have been publicized as being "in development" that never end up getting made. For example, there was a lot of press about America's Next Muppet being made for TV in 2005. There's also been The Muppets Leave Hollywood in 1998, The Next Muppet Movie in 1999, Muppet Time Travel in 2001... It's just part of the business. They'll announce a new project, just to get the buzz started. If the project doesn't work out, then they move on.

So we created the In Development category to hold all of the stuff that's being worked on. We don't put them in other categories, because otherwise the Muppet Movies category would have a bunch of extra entries for movies that never got beyond a first draft script.

When the project happens -- the movie is released, or the TV show premieres -- then it moves out of In Development and into the appropriate category. If the project doesn't happen, then it moves to the Unfinished Projects category.

So there's the explanation... I hope that makes sense. It's great to see you back on the wiki, and I hope we haven't frustrated you too much! -- Danny (talk) 20:00, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Under that logic, shouldn't the Unfinished Project pages be completely uncategorized? --Trogga 22:14, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Not really. Unfinished Projects are in, well, Unfinished Projects or the appropriate subcat thereof. One or two are in other movie/TV categories, and should generally be fixed (I just did so on The Dark Crystal (TV), but note that the incompleted movies aren't categorized as Muppet Movies, and you don't find something like The Seven Deadly Sins in Category:Creature Shop Movies with Labyrinth and the like. That's the logic at work, and the other categories just add confusion, state a certainty which doesn't exist until the project is released or definitely abandoned, and so on. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 22:28, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

No I mean like why is Category:Unfinished Movies a subcat of Category:Movies? Why can't we make Category:Movies In Development? --Trogga 20:34, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

It's a thought, but it's redundant since at some point a "Movies in Development" category would be empty (while Unfinished is permanent). Development is a temporary category, until the subject actually comes out or we have evidence that it's been scrapped. In general, it's not hard to find the stuff in the development category, through links and so on, and since many are in vague preliminary stages, other categorization doesn't really help until we have concrete info one way or another. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 20:41, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I think that's a good point... I'm going to move this discussion to Current events, if that's okay. -- Danny (talk) 21:08, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Stub/Attention

Hi Ian -- We actually already have a stub category, called Pages that need attention. We had a couple conversations about it, and basically felt like "stub" was too limiting of a definition. People take "stub" to mean that the problem with the article is that it's too short. As it turns out, lots of the pages in the Attention category are longer than a stub; they just need help in one way or another. -- Danny (talk) 15:11, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I just wanted to give users something to do. --Trogga 15:14, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that's cool; I appreciate that! I just want you to know that we already have a system for it. You should change the tag on Safari Animal Tracker to {{attention}}, and then post something on that talk page explaining what kind of attention you think the article needs.

Also, I'm not sure why Current events needs to be in the Muppet Wiki namespace. It's actually never been clear to me what the Muppet Wiki namespace is. Is there a particular reason why it should be there? -- Danny (talk) 15:19, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

It separates the "project pages" from the "encyclopedia pages." --Trogga 15:21, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, we have lots of project pages, including talk page archives and all kinds of stuff. I don't think anybody's been particularly confused about whether Current events is a project page or an encyclopedia page. -- Danny (talk) 15:25, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

It just feels more right. --Trogga 15:27, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm kind of used to the way it was, and I think other people might be too. Is it okay if I change it back? -- Danny (talk) 15:30, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't know; the Sandbox is also in the Muppet Wiki namespace. But go ahead. --Trogga 15:34, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

That's a good point. But I think we should have a discussion about it before we change the title of a page people use all the time. I'll change it back for now; if you feel like starting a conversation about it on Current events, feel free. -- Danny (talk) 15:37, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

To add my thoughts, really Category:Muppet Wiki, while it isn't strictly to seperate projects and "encyclopedia" pages, strikes me as sufficient to include any policy pages and so forth which would otherwise be uncategorized, and it already includes current events. Name spacing seems redundant and in fact rather confusing, since apart from cameos, we don't do that anywhere else. There's Muppet Wiki:Style Guide and Muppet Wiki:Acronyms, which look out of place to me. Scott created the latter, and it might be to prevent confusion with a page on acronyms in productions (MAMMA and COVNET so on), but right now, they stick out like a sore thumb. It seems to me, there should be some clear rationale for why pages have that spacing, which would be evident (actually, there's more pages without the colon, like Muppet Wiki User Name policy and so forth). Regardless, Current Events is a standard on many wikis, and doesn't really need any additional prefix. Andrew Leal (talk) 06:20, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

This isn't the place to be talking about it, but I disagree. I think all project pages should be preceded by Muppet Wiki which is standard for wiki software structure. -- Scott (talk) 14:52, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

If that's the case, then I'm not sure we disagree, since the inconsistency is what bothers me more than anything else (though I'm still not sure current events needs it, since that's standardized as opposed to Images Wanted). Andrew Leal (talk) 15:03, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

While I really don't really care or have have strong feelings about namespaces, I saw this and thought I would just say that having the "Muppet Wiki" namespace prevents the page from coming up when clicking "random article" and it disables the page ranking feature (the "rate it" stars) on the quartz skin. -- Brad D. (talk) 20:14, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Talk page headings

Hey Ian -- Another little tip -- When you're starting a new conversation on a talk page (like you did on Talk:Statler and Waldorf), put the new heading at the top of the page. We do it differently than a lot of other wikis. It's just easier to see the new conversation if it's on top. Thanks! -- Danny (talk) 15:29, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Muppet Central pic

Hi, Ian -- It's nice to see you back on the wiki! Just so you know, we shouldn't copy pictures from Muppet Central. They don't really like sharing. -- Danny (talk) 14:39, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I didn't know... --Trogga 14:40, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, it's cool, it's just a weird thing about them. Most other websites are fine to take pictures from, just not Muppet Central, Kermitage or puppet builders' portfolio sites. -- Danny (talk) 14:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Main Page Edits

Trogga, your enthusiasm is appreciated, but it would be best not to edit the main page. That responsibility is reserved for admins, like Toughpigs or Scarecroe. And more than that, to date, the stub tag hasn't really been put into use here, and if you link to the category again, you're just linking to an empty page. --Aleal 02:31, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Can't the admins lock the main page so only they can edit it? --Trogga 02:36, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if they can or not, but more importantly, til recently, it really hasn't been an issue. In any event, I think they, and most of us, would prefer it if no edits are made to that page, and especially not without first discussing it with the community. Also, I reverted your addition of the Fraggle Rock Characters as a subcategory of Muppet Characters, as it thus implies that Doc or Ned Shimmelfinny are Muppets. If you want to contribute, you might consider waiting on any sudden category changes and so forth (if you do have an idea for one, mention it on that category's talk page, or in the Current events page. Why not just look up a page on a favorite show or character and see what info you can add (but for the record, while quotes can be added, and most of the main characters have their own quote pages, wholesale transcripts and such are generally avoided). Or check the items on the Things you can do page, especially the Wanted Pages list. --Andrew, Aleal 02:40, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Andrew, nobody complained when Brad, Warrick or I edited the main page. Trogga is not guilty of vandalism.--MuppetVJ 02:53, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I didn't accuse him of vandalism, but check the edits, MuppetVJ. I really don't think there's a need to keep adding in a stubs category to the front page category list, which is kept fairly small, and especially as there's absolutely no stub-marked pages at this time, so it's an empty shell. Maybe I put it poorly and should have stressed that more than the main page edit. Aleal 03:03, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

If I were Trogga, I would rather hear that advice from the admins themselves. No offense.--MuppetVJ 03:07, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I didn't mean to overstep my boundaries, no, but it seemed like something worth communicating, and wasn't sure where else to put it. Sorry (and definitely don't mean to come across as unfriendly to a newcomer). Aleal 03:09, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

No hard feelings. This is a learning process for all of us, including the admins.--MuppetVJ 03:11, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Okay, here's an admin to talk about it. Hi, Trogga -- I'm Danny, I'm one of the founders of the wiki. Can you tell us your name? I'm much more comfortable talking to people when I can actually call you by your name.

Anyway: Trogga, you're not a vandal, and there's no problem. You made a pretty common new user mistake, which is jumping right in to reorganize things without getting to know the wiki or the other users. There are reasons why those categories are on the main page and not others; there's a reason why Muppet Show Characters isn't a subcategory of Muppet Characters. We've been working on the wiki's structure for a couple months now, so there's already a history of decisions that we've talked about.

As you participate in the wiki, you earn the right to make big decisions. You have to build up some trust with the community, by adding to pages, making good edits, and participating on talk pages and in Current events discussions. As people get to know you, then you get more of a say.

Andrew and Guillermo, you've both earned that status. You both add a lot to the pages, you watch out for vandalism, you start talk page discussions, and you communicate with other users. The admins trust you guys, and I assume that the whole community does. So I don't think either of you stepped out of line talking here on Trogga's page. It's good for both of you to talk to new users; it helps the new people understand how things work. The admins aren't always around -- there's only three of us, and this is a 24-hour wiki. It's good that there's people like you guys, who aren't official admins, but who are stepping up and taking some responsibility for making things work better. That's cool; it means you care about the wiki.

Meanwhile, Trogga: what Andrew said above is good advice. It's a good idea for new people to start out by adding to pages, and working on some of the projects on the Things you can do page. You can build up your trust bank really quickly, just by adding information to a bunch of pages. So I hope you keep working on stuff here. Let me know if you have any questions or problems! -- Danny Toughpigs 18:18, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't want to give you my last name, but my first name is Ian. Thanks for the support! --Trogga 23:34, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

It's nice to meet you, Ian! I added you to the Community portal. -- Danny Toughpigs 23:46, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

By the way, right now you're posting on the Category talk:Muppet Characters page... Like I said earlier, I think you'll make more headway right now by adding to articles, rather than trying to reorganize things. -- Danny Toughpigs 23:51, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Although I have to admit, the table of contents that you just made for Muppet Characters is very cool. Maybe you should be reorganizing things! -- Danny Toughpigs 00:15, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Welcome!

Hi, welcome to Muppet Wiki! It's good to see you jumping in and adding to pages. My name's Scott, I'm one of the admins here. Check out the Muppet Wiki FAQ page to help you get started. Let me know if there's anything I can help you with! -- Scarecroe 21:53, 2 February 2006 (UTC)