User talk:Toughpigs - Muppet Wiki

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Hi, Danny!

That picture on Beddy Bright Ernie just about sums up my childhood. I love it! You think we'll ever get Muppet toys (with the non-Sesame characters) like the ones we had in the '70's? The figurines and skateboard stuff we saw at D23 are all right, but why can't they do toys and books and board games and coloring books and stuff like that? Are they trying to get an older audience for non-Sesame stuff? It seemed to work pretty well for us, when we had both universes side by side in the stores. -- Ken (talk) 05:45, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not sure what their plan is with the Muppet Show characters right now... I think they're trying to position them more for an adult audience. I miss having lots of toys too; I hope they can get the merchandise engine running a bit higher soon. -- Danny

(talk) 06:06, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! By the way, I just ran across a Christian artist who sampled Bert talking in one of his songs. Where would something like that go? (I love when I find stuff like that!) -- Ken (talk) 06:36, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

That kind of stuff is pretty common, and not very interesting unless the artist is particularly well-known... I don't know if we have a Minor Song Mentions type page, but that's a possibility... -- Danny

(talk) 16:37, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

Charlie McCarthy reference

Hi Danny: I'm having a bit of a disagreement with Scott and Andrew over how to cite the reference to Charlie McCarthy by Gilchrist on the Charlie McCarthy page. Here is the message I left on Scott's page, the last to edit the McCarthy page.

Here is the message I left on Andrew's talk page about putting the reference back in: Hi Andrew: I'm putting the citation back because when I did it originally, I was following Danny's lead for the Spike Jones page. Also, the reference appears in the text and in the figure caption; this is by design, in case more references to McCarthy are found and added. Many images have no captions, let alone citations, and discerning their origin often requires a careful reading of the article.— Tom (talk) 19:37, November 28, 2009 (UTC)

Now Scott has removed the reference of the Walt Kelly page as well. I can kinda see removing it from pages that have only one or two figures, but on pages with multiple figures I put the reference tags in the figure caption as well as in the text, and was in the process of linking directly to the Book Collections section of the The Muppets (comic strip) page so that there would be something to click on in the "Sources" section. I'm unhappy about Scott and Andrew's changes (and have left messages on both their talk pages) because they seem somewhat arbitrary and because they obfuscate the source of the material, rather than making it more accessible.— Tom (talk) 20:35, November 28, 2009 (UTC)

Tom, see your talk page. Please relax on the ref tags. We're not Wikipedia. —Scott (talk) 20:37, November 28, 2009 (UTC)

Google Search Suggest

Have you seen this? —Scott (talk) 04:50, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

Oh, that's hot! I like that. -- Danny

(talk) 05:27, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

Me, Kruvi

Actually I do have a small problem. How do you get the pictures in good quality from a typical camera?

Jim Henson's World of Television

Hi Danny: I would like to make a page for "Jim Henson's World of Television (book)," the companion book to the exhibit of the same name that took place in 1992 at The Museum of Television and Radio. I remember reading that you didn't like starting page titles with "Jim Henson's." Is this the case, and, if so, should I just call the page "World of Television?"— Tom (talk) 22:52, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

I'm not Danny, but this sounds like a different case. The rule applied to cases where shows tacked on "Jim Henson's" (Or "Jim Henson Presents") as a "brand" prefix whether Jim Henson had anything to do with it or not, and he usually didn't (i.e. Mother Goose Stories, The Animal Show, Dog City, Sid the Science Kid etc.), rather in the fashion of "Walt Disney's." In this case, the book is actually about Henson's TV work, so using the full title would be appropriate; dropping it makes it sound more vague and generic. So, say, "Jim Henson's Art of Puppetry" or something, yes; "Jim Henson's Bunny Slipper Kid Adventures," no. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 22:56, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Andrew. I'll go with the full title.— Tom (talk) 23:02, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

Leon the Grouch

Hi Danny: I added the above character to the Grouch Gallery. Currently, the name links nowhere, but I wonder if you want to create a "Leon the Grouch" page, add categories, then delete it and redirect to The Sesame Street Bedtime Storybook as you did for Uncle Billy and How to Be a Grouch. Thanks!— Tom (talk) 16:13, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I was wrong. A Leon the Grouch page already exists, but it had no picture, and Leo hadn't been put in the Grouch Gallery. The character page does provide some information that is not on the book page or in the Grouch Gallery, so whether or not you want to keep it is your call.— Tom (talk) 16:19, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

Bohemian Rhapsody

Hey Danny, I was wondering if you had seen this but based on the Bohemian Rhapsody activity, I guess I was too slow! I'm not a big Queen fan, but this song is still really awesome. I found it linked on a forum tonight, but a day late and a dollar short. --Charitwo (talk) 04:04, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Santa Soundtrack

Hey, Danny, I just saw the Twitter page that said the Letters to Santa soundtrack is on iTunes and Amazon MP3. Can I still make a page for it, as if it had been sold as a "real" CD? I have a feeling we'll be seeing more of this in the future. -- Ken (talk) 02:03, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, for sure! This is an album. We don't make a distinction between LPs, cassettes, 8-tracks and CDs... Like you said, this may be the next format. -- Danny

(talk) 02:50, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! I also belong to a record forum, and they were discussing how more things are becoming download-only. So I'm glad you guys are keeping an eye on that stuff, because I would have missed it! -- Ken (talk) 03:30, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

How to Be a Grouch

Ah, Danny, I see you anticipated my plan:) I've got a few more images from that book, and I'll add them both to the Grouch Gallery and to the gallery on the book page. I wonder, however, if we need the Smiling George and Otto the Grouch pages, since these characters exist only in this one book of Spinney's? We could link those two figure captions in the Grouch Gallery directly to the book page and kill the redundant pages. What do you think?— Tom (talk) 01:58, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree! I'll do a redirect to the book page, but leave the categories on the redirects so that they'll still show up in the category lists. -- Danny

(talk) 02:51, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Great. So, should the new images I added to the Grouch Gallery be linked differently so that they'll also show up in the category lists? I just linked them directly to the book page.— Tom (talk) 02:55, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, we could create an Uncle Billy page... Probably not for "Pop" or "A grouchy girl". But characters with names are always fun to have. I'll make a page for Uncle B. -- Danny

(talk) 02:58, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Question about reference for The Great Seal of Disapproval

Hi Danny: When I first saw an original copy of volume 1, issue 1 of the issue of the Newsletter, I knew I had to resurrect that seal (I've actually had it made into a rubber stamp, just for fun.) At the moment I have the image referenced as "Digitally reconstructed from The Muppet Show Fan Club Newsletter, volume 1, number 1." Do you think I should add my name?— Tom (talk) 00:00, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

I think it was fine the way you had it originally: "The Great Seal of Disapproval from The Muppet Show Fan Club volume 1, number 1." I think it's awesome that you reconstructed it, and it looks fantastic, but I think the reader is more interested in where it's from than the fact that the image was enhanced by a particular person. It feels a little like signing your name next to your work, which isn't really how the wiki works. Does that make sense? -- Danny

(talk) 00:18, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

That's absolutely fine with me; I was just checking because I was a little surprised when you had me put my name down on the reference for the recent email interview with Karen Falk (which I hadn't done originally.) I think I understand the difference now. I would, however, like to leave the reference as "Digitally reconstructed from..." because the image itself doesn't exist on the Newsletter, just overlapping versions of it. Is this OK with you?— Tom (talk) 00:30, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Seriously, I think it's fine. In order for somebody to understand what "digitally reconstructed" means, they'll have to know that it's overlapping versions on the newsletter, and that's a whole bunch of extra sentences to tell them about something that they don't really need to know. I think it's okay to sacrifice strict accuracy in this case, in the service of readability.

For stuff like the e-mail interview, I think we need to say who the other party is. "E-mail communication" is okay in an academic work with a single author, because we know that the communication was with the author of the work. On a wiki, there are hundreds of authors, and the only way to know who added a particular sentence is to comb through the history. So "e-mail communication" is an incomplete reference, because we don't know who talked to them, and it's hard to track down the source to verify it. -- Danny

(talk) 01:08, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

If you ever need or want to add more details about an image's origin, Tom, you can always add a note or description directly to the file page, rather than in the article. We don't do it that often but it's useful for that; that way the info is there should anybody need it (most ofen the editor in question or other editors rather than readers), but it isn't distracting in the article text or setting up the situation Danny mentioned. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 01:14, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Andrew and Danny. Everything you said is fine with me. Danny: I think that Nate had removed the link in the image caption because I already had it in the text. I'll leave the link in the caption alone unless you want to remove it.— Tom (talk) 01:24, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Discussion in Current Events about headings

Hi Danny: Would you mind clarifying your proposed guidelines for changing "References" headings in articles? I thought you meant that both articles that have "References" and "Muppet Mentions" section and articles that are longer than one page at a typical screen resolution would be subject to the proposed change. I'd just like to be on the same page concerning the proposal under discussion. Thanks!— Tom (talk) 17:47, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Re-Boot

Any idea what was up with the wiki that my IP address was getting blocked out? -- Nate (talk) 16:17, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Episodes 0231-0235

I was wondering, where did you get the information for these episodes? I don't remember seeing them listed in the CTW Archives' lists. -- MuppetDude 19:55, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

That must have been from a research paper... I can look it up when I'm at home. -- Danny

(talk) 19:59, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

I think many of the season two episode pages were compiled using reference materials from Sesame Street Parents magazine, which I think included program guides in its issues for one year. --Minor muppetz 20:16, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I scanned the materials where I got that information from, and posted it on Sesame Street gender stereotyping reports. I've got lots more of those -- I'll scan them and post them later on. -- Danny

(talk) 06:22, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Cool stuff, Danny! I've always heard about the complaints from NOW, and it's cool to read the actual stuff that they wrote to each other! -- Ken (talk) 06:26, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure why, but this stuff really makes my day a lot better. There's a lot of clips I could identify there (and one episode not uploaded yet)! Very cool stuff there. I look forward to expanding the pages with these. -- MuppetDude 15:07, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Love Is

Love is the Museum of Monster Art. You know that just made me go insane right, because some of them I'm struggling to dial up my old art history knowledge and figure out what they are spoofing. It's like the Andy Warhol soda bottle one. I looked at it and thought Warhol, then talked myself out of it for some reason thinking it was something else. -- Nate (talk) 18:10, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

I'm amazed at the ones you've been able to identify so far! Discobolus is unbelievable. Who would've thought we'd have a page on that? I love having that stuff on the wiki. I'll go through again and correct some of the crooked pages -- I just wanted to get the whole batch up last night. -- Danny

(talk) 18:29, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

You filled in M. C. Escher! I never would have dialed that one up. -- Nate (talk) 19:43, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Ha, really? There are only a few that I can ID unassisted -- Escher, Calder, Warhol, Seurat, Magritte. I guess I know modern art better than I do classical -- I never would've gotten Discobolus or Samothrace. :) -- Danny

(talk) 19:47, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

I found another one, Charles Demuth. The Magritte one is tickling my brain -- it could be The Son of Man, which has an apple in front of the bowler-hatted man's face, but there's another one with a floating bowler hat and no head that I can't find... -- Danny

(talk) 20:00, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

That Magritte is Le Pelerin (or in English, The Pilgrim, 1966), with the head disembodied to the left (see here). That's why I asked Nate to save it for me. Though of course the bowler hat man in general is a recurring Magritte motif, but Pelerin/Pilgrim is the clearest inspiration (no doubt they didn't want to upset the kids too much with a headless Ernie). -- Andrew Leal (talk) 20:10, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

1979 Sesame Street Character Guide

Hi Danny: Did you get the three pages I emailed you so far? They're pretty big, so I don't know if you're getting them or not.— Tom (talk) 17:39, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't check my e-mail this weekend! I just got it now, and wrote back to you. They're wonderful, very exciting! -- Danny

(talk) 18:27, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Lucky! -- MuppetDude 18:33, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, we're working on getting some cool stuff up on the wiki so that everyone has access. They're good research tools. -- Danny

(talk) 18:44, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

No kidding; I still have a hundred of 'em to go! -- MuppetDude 18:45, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Hi Danny: Thanks for your kind words about The Great Seal of the United States. When you get a chance, could you get back to me via email about the stuff that I sent you and Scott earlier today? Thanks.— Tom (talk) 21:05, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Michael Davis

Hi! I noticed that Tom unlinked the red links we had for Michael Davis, with a note saying that there is no page for him on the wiki. So I was going to make one, but what do we have for him other than what's on the Street Gang page? Do you want to leave him redlinked, or not linked at all?

P.S. I love all your toys! -- Ken (talk) 02:41, November 22, 2009 (UTC)

I think Tom's right -- there's no point to making a Michael Davis page, since the only relevant thing he's done is to write Street Gang. There isn't anything else we could say on his page that isn't already on Street Gang... -- Danny

(talk) 02:44, November 22, 2009 (UTC)

Okay, thanks! -- Ken (talk) 02:46, November 22, 2009 (UTC)

Michael Davis has also written several articles related to Sesame Street. Off the top of my head, I know he's written about it in TV Guide and American Way. — Joe (talk) 15:42, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Hi Joe: You're right, and Davis explains in interviews that his coverage of Sesame Street is what led him to write the book. I'd imagine that he drew on that coverage in part while writing the book, but I'm not opposed to a Davis page if someone can dig up something worth putting on it.— Tom (talk) 17:39, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Davis has also hosted a few Sesame Street events, most of which were related to/ publicity for the book. --Minor muppetz 20:17, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

I think all of that stuff should be on the Street Gang page... It's all Street Gang related. -- Danny

(talk) 20:54, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Tom: The articles I mentioned came after the release of the book. They're more related to the 40th Anniversary than Street Gang, so I don't know if that makes any difference in giving him his own article. — Joe (talk) 21:47, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Hi Joe: Good to talk to you again. I dunno the answer to your question. I know that you did a great interview with Davis, and that others have done great interviews with him, and that he's written stuff promoting both his book and the 40th anniversary (I don't think he wrote anything where he specifically omitted any mention of his book), but it's not my call. Danny seems to think that all that can go under Street Gang. I just kinda stumbled into this discussion by removing a link that pointed nowhere.— Tom (talk) 22:17, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

deleting pages

Hiya. Can you check What Links Here before pages get deleted? More often than not, we leave behind redlinks that way. —Scott (talk) 16:21, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

Gah, I'm sorry! I usually do, but last night I didn't. -- Danny

(talk) 18:25, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

Muppet Show Fan Club Newsletters

Hi Danny: I put in the "Mail" category on the Muppet Show Fan Club page because the newsletters are actual articles of mail, bearing both sender and recipient addresses. As I'm sure you're aware, each newsletter is a single 11 x 17" sheet, folded into 8.5 x 11" and the tri-folded to roughly the size of an envelope and sealed (with some kind of sticker?). So they're not articles delivered by mail; they are articles of mail. What do you think?— Tom (talk) 05:14, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

I think the same is true for anything in the Magazines category. The Mail category doesn't have a description and is vague like most of our "theme" categories, but it doesn't make sense to me to have all the magazines in that category. -- Danny

(talk) 05:19, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

I guess you're right. At one point I started to collect magazines as part of my Henson and Sesame Street postal history collection, but the things are just too bulky.— Tom (talk) 05:50, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

Possibly twisting your arm

You added cover scans of The Museum of Monster Art and The Museum of Monster Art Sticker Fun. Do you own those coloring books? I'm having such fun doing all the reference pages, and those would be just a gold mine of fun crazy tie-ins for the wiki if you had them. -- Nate (talk) 22:43, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

I have the first one... I'll go find it and do some scans. I love all the reference stuff you've been doing; I'm happy to feed your obsession! -- Danny

(talk) 02:57, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

HUUZAH! That makes me happy. I wish they were doing fun coloring books like Golden used to do, the dollar store ones just don't cut it. I'm avoiding going on ebay and looking for some because that just leads to trouble. lol. -- Nate (talk) 15:37, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

I found the book last night, so I'll be able to do some scans probably tonight..... -- Danny

(talk) 16:35, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

No rush at all. I'm sure there are a million pages to it! -- Nate (talk) 16:45, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

Danny's talk archive

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Toughpigs 95,201 edits since December 5, 2005