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  • If he is later convicted of the charges, can we readd the info?

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    • We've kept things such as that off the wiki in the past. It's not really relevent to this site anyway. They can find information about that on his wikipedia page.

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    • They can find out that Jack Black was in Kung Fu Panda on his Wikipedia page, as well. Even if not convicted, his career in children's entertainment is pretty-well shot. When someone ends their career with the Muppets to become a novelist, we include that, it just seems we should have less fortunate ends included.

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    • There is at least one other individual with a page on here that we have ommited the information from as well in another child pornography case. This is a wiki about the Henson universe, and that falls outside the scope.

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    • See Talk:Chris Langham. This falls under the "personal lives" rule (as opposed to ("other creative works"), just like we don't cover divorces, and for deaths, we don't need to be overly detailed over cause (we can say "died of cancer," we don't need to specify exactly which kind if it's covered over on Wikipedia and so on). By the same token, we don't track even positive stuff like "just gave birth to first daughter." We only track such info when it's Wiki relevant (i.e. for people like Sonia Manzano when it affected their work on the series and character plot, and so on).

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    • For that matter, see also Paul Reubens, Michael Jackson. Even for Northern Calloway, we mention the reason for his departure and link to a couple of articles about his death, but we don't go into the nitty gritty about his downhill slide and death (much of which wasn't fully revealed until "Street Gang" anyway, and which we could probably add as a citation for more details without becoming tabloidy in our own coverage). It's a policy decision the community came to years ago.

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    • Reubens, Jackson, and Langham were all famous outside of Sesame. Arguably, Sesame and the awards that came with it *made* Mr. Rivas.

      Marriages, divorces, etc. don't end careers (unless the person is a Kardashian), so I agree that's irrelevant and invasive, unless it's Sonia, or Marty and Annie marrying (and starting an official Sesame blog), etc. With Northern Calloway, agreed, it's enough to summarize his decline, and let people find a copy of the book.

      But people will connect Rivas with Sesame, and thus the Muppets. Thus they'll expect us to at least have a footnote that they can learn more info through. Especially when there's a direct connection between career and alleged crime, it seems silly to not even have a sentence, if found guilty.

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    • Of relevance, look how many people turned to Wikipedia after the news broke: http://stats.grok.se/en/latest/Fernando_Rivas Surely a few hundred turned to Muppet Wiki. Without the arrest mentioned, they think we're either slow or in denial.

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    • It's still a policy, Nick. Please let it drop. Thanks!

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    • It's not on the policy page: http://muppet.wikia.com/wiki/Policy

      It just seems with this, and with the image width discussion (also not on the policy page), you expect that every contributor to this project spends every waking moment reading CE.

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    • We don't, Nick. But these have been policies for years now. You're right that the Policy page needs updating (it covered those which were the biggest problems at the time; the width one, honestly you're the first person to actively challenge it, and we'll get to it (I thought of bring it up on Current Events just the other day). Thanks for pointing it out. But please Nick, while I agree that a lot of the policies established from Current Events and talk discussions need to be noted on the page, that doesn't make them less of a policy. Thanks!

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    • Nick has a good point that this particular bit of personal life is impacting Rivas' professional career and thus not entirely irrelevant to his page. It seems to me that a compromise might be simply to state an end date to the time he wrote for Sesame Street (I assume he won't be working with them anymore?) and cite that with a link to a reasonably factual presentation of what and why. The end date to his association with Sesame is relevant and well within the scope of the wiki.

      What do you guys think?

      I think that should hopefully satisfy both Nick's desire to have a more complete article with a link to more info for anybody who is curious, and our general policy of not including details of people's personal lives. Nick can you come up with a suitable link to cite for this? If not yet, please add the information when there is one.

      As for the policies in general, we should have that as a more public discussion.

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    • Monsterena in 1998 seems to be his last song, at least on this wiki. Why he stopped working for them then would likely have to be answered by Rivas himself.

      As for sources, there's 41 options on Google News. Among them are CBS News, FOX News, USA Today, Reuters. (I guess one thing to note, the only other "personal life details" about Sesame staffer in the last decade was Loretta Long being hit by a car. So long as the mainstream news doesn't report, we don't.)

      Note that Rivas inflated his resume, this article needs revision, I'll do it after lunch if no one else has: http://www.postandcourier.com/news/2011/nov/24/rivas-inflated-resume/

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    • yup. Andrew also just told me he stopped a long time ago, which the article does not currently reflect. Let's straighten that out so it's clear in our article when the association ended -- as is, it seems as if he started in 1990 and is still writing for them. No need for a reference in that case though, as the current problems are not the reason he stopped working for them, and the evidence that he stopped is the lack of songs.

      And yeah, we try to keep included personal information relevant to their career with sesame/henson; I don't personally think it matters whether it's "mainstream" news that reports it or not. It would seem odd to put this stuff in on one composer from 10 years ago when we don't have it on so many others.

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    • We don't have it on so many others, simply because they never were the subject of headlines, except for their professional careers. (And even then, most were still never the subject of headlines.) And if mainstream news coverage of something is irrelevant, we should get rid of Misinterpretations of Sesame Street product voices.

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    • Well that's coverage of products, not people's private lives; I was referring to the latter when I said I didn't think it mattered if the news source were mainstream or not. The point being we don't cover details of people's private lives, headlines or not.

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    • I really don't think this is a big deal for us. Rivas wasn't even important enough to have a page on the wiki until now. It's good that we have a page on him now, but we're not expected to be an up-to-the-minute news source for every minor Sesame alumnus.

      We can talk back and forth about policies, but honestly, this really does come down to a matter of taste. We have no idea what the facts are in this case; our only sources are vague summaries about the charges. I don't want to print that stuff here, because if he's proven innocent, then I don't want to be part of a smear campaign that destroys his life and his career. It's not cool.

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    • 54.211.213.10
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