TALK PAGES ARE NO LONGER USED
To discuss article changes, please use:
If you see comments on this page, they remain for archive purposes.
NEWLY ADDED COMMENTS WILL BE REMOVED
Now that we've got three seasons worth of The Muppet Show DVDs, I'm thinking of compiling some information on each individual season. Major changes in the cast and crew, new characters, trends, etc. Something like what we did for Sesame Street Season One. Do you guys think it would require its own page or go on this one? My instinct is to put the information on DVD pages, like The Muppet Show: Season Three. Thoughts? -- Peter (talk) 16:33, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
- It's a great idea. However, I think that information is more worthwhile here than on the DVD pages (especially since those articles are intended to provide information on the DVD contents, not changes or developments within the original show), plus we only have five seasons to discuss as opposed to 30 plus for Sesame. I'd say go for it, but it would be easier to have that all on this page so one can follow the progression (and don't hesitate to use The Muppet Show Fan Club scans for quotes or other info). -- Andrew Leal (talk) 16:48, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm putting another Attention tag on this article, because I think it still needs some work. There's been a lot of good work on it, and this is a good start. Here are some things that still need to be done:
- General copy editing and cleanup. The writing could be more fluent and easier to read. We can split up some of those longer paragraphs.
- More illustrations. There's a lot of text, and having more pictures makes it easier on the reader.
- Fewer lists. Some of the paragraphs in "Setting and Characters" are long lists of character names, which is hard for a reader to process. Important characters and recurring sketches should have their own paragraphs. Minor characters shouldn't be mentioned on this page.
- More sections. Splitting the text up into sections will also help readers to stay oriented on the page. "Setting and Characters" could be broken up into sections.
- Miss Piggy. She was a major driving force behind the popularity and the merchandising of the show. There should be a section on Piggy's development over the course of the series, and Kermit and Piggy's relationship.
- Quotes and sources. Right now, there's only one reference on the page. Pull-out quotes would help with the readability of the page, and we need to have sources for the behind-the-scenes information.
- Maybe we should nominate pictures for this page and then vote on them, just like we do with voting on pictures for the main page (only the pictures wouldn't change as often, if at all). The characters section could have a few group pictures, for example. I feel speechless on what to say about a [[Miss Piggy] section... it would most likely be a bit redundant, repeating information from her character page. Important characters should get their own paragraph, while minor characters shouldn't be mentioned... How do we determine if they are important enough or too minor? The important characters are obviously Kermit, Fozzie, Miss Piggy, Gonzo, Rowlf, and Scooter, but then there are characters who are less important, but still major characters, and still popular with casual and hardcore fans alike. How do we know where to end at this? And should we leave out characters who were only major during the first season? And by minor, I guess we could leave out characters like Gaffer, Fleet Scribbler and Marvin Suggs, but should we leave out Rizzo, who, as stated in this article, became a major character years after the series ended (though a minor character on the show, once he made his debut he was rarely absent from an episode)? Should we not mention Lips even if we mention all other members of The Electric Mayhem? And what about Foo-Foo (I guess if there is a section on Miss Piggy then Foo-Foo should be mentioned as her pet). But we should make this better.... Let's do our best and make this article worthy of a Quality Article nomination! --Minor muppetz 20:47, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
- Okay. I tried to tighten up the Settings and Characters section; it could probably be tightened up a little more. I also added a Sketches section, sticking to just the iconic ones that people will remember from their childhood. Of course the Talking Houses are out, but I left out Bear on Patrol as well, as I've never heard a casual viewer mention them. The Swedish Chef's segments could also probably be grouped here, but the Chef's antics are mentioned more than once already on this page, so it seemed redundant to talk about it again.
- If anyone else has suggestions about how to go at Danny's ideas, I'm open to them. I think the thing most lacking on this page at the moment is a Miss Piggy section, but again it's difficult to figure out an approach to this section that isn't redundant of material found elsewhere. -- Tom H 21:05, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I split up the setting and characters sections for now, mainly to see if it works better like that. The two sections need work, though. --Justin 16:46, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
There probably should be a section on the original air dates on the series for all known sales (UK, US, Canada, NZ, Australia etc) where they are known. It should also be pointed out that the show aired on different regional channels on different days in the US and the UK; I know that Muppet Central member Anathema has a list-in-progress of the UK airdates. I can easily find the New Zealand air dates by going to my local Public Library and looking up old newspapers and magazines. --David French 04:56, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
- Epguides.com has a list for the episodes that aired in the Midlands region, which was the first in the UK to air the series. We can post a link to Anathema's list which is available online; that lists all the UK regions and the dates they aired each episode. We don't need to go into too much detail - just the important facts like not all UK regions aired every episode, or aired the same episode on the same day etc. For the US, we need only do what was done for the Muppet Morsels and just mention when each season aired in New York and LA. I'm sure there are plenty of US fans who, in their spare time, would be willing to go to their local Library and do some research on the US airdates. As I live in New Zealand, it's easy for me to find out the NZ airdates. As for other countries - well fans of those countries might be willing to do research on their airdates and they can be added in once they have been "discovered". --David French 09:43, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Right now the article talks about the themed episodes in three separate sections. Tom is working on thhe page right now, so I don't want to jump in just yet, but we should decide where the themed topic best fits in the article and link to Muppet Show Themed Episodes from there. —Scott (talk) 19:22, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- I only found one spot, and tried to fix it. In general, there's a certain amounmt of overlap in the Format and Evolution Segments, which suggests they might be merged. Also, I tried to maintain a distinction between the "book" episodes (there's a quote somewhere in Of Muppets and Men somewhere discussing it) and themed episodes. It's definitely taking shape, though! -- Andrew Leal (talk) 20:07, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
It is written that both guest stars Rita Moreno and Carol Burnett won Emmy Awards for their appearances. Is this actually true? Rita Moreno did win an Emmy for best guest appearence, but as far as it's been mentioned in books as well as in the Brian Henson Muppet Show intros, the Carol Burnett episode won for outstanding writing, not for Carol Burnett's appearance. -- Stulz 16:55, 18 February 2007 (EST)
I just added a part in the article about Anthony Daniels receiving a "Silver Kermit" as a gift while on The Muppet Show. Did all of The Muppet Show guest stars receive these? Perhaps other than those who received Muppets as gifts? --Gribbaziggy 23:15, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
- I took that bit out, and moved it to the Anthony Daniels page. It's an interesting tidbit, but it doesn't really belong here. We have a Production Gifts category, and we could use some more work there, if you're interested in it. Kermitage had a page on gifts given to guest stars and crew members -- it's archived here. The "silver Kermit" is on that page. -- Danny (talk) 15:53, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
This is another example of a "basic" article where we've been so caught up adding all the little details that we've neglected actually building the base article. This is probably even less comprehensive as an article than its counterpart on Wikipedia.
Some areas where this could be built up include:
- More detailed description of the premise and location. Structure of the show, with introductions, musical acts, comedy sketches, backstage scenes.
- The role of the guest star -- only human in each episode, relationship between guest star and Muppets. Mention some memorable guest stars, and guest star moments -- Harry Belafonte and the African masks, Rita Moreno singing "Fever", Alice Cooper.
- Major characters -- capsule character sketch of Kermit, Piggy, Fozzie, Gonzo, Animal, Scooter, Electric Mayhem, Statler and Waldorf, Bunsen and Beaker. Mention other memorable "fan-favorites".
- Character development -- Miss Piggy, Fozzie and Gonzo all develop significantly over the course of the show. Ditto the relationship between Kermit and Piggy.
- Recurring sketches -- At the Dance, Vet's Hospital, Pigs in Space.
- Development of the show -- Running gag-oriented in the first season, with Jack Burns as head writer. Jerry Juhl takes over as head writer in the second season, and the show shifts more towards character-based plots. Branching out and becoming more experimental in later seasons, with theme shows.
- Popularity of the show -- merchandise, spin-off specials, The Muppet Movie, press coverage.
- Why the show ended (with quotes from Henson, etc).
We should also have citations for all of the behind-the-scenes stuff. If people have copies of Of Muppets and Men and Jim Henson: The Works, those have tons of good quotes for citations.
In any documentary on Jim Henson, there's always a 5-10 minute segment on The Muppet Show, giving an overview of the show and the characters, with clips of all the things that someone who remembers the show from their childhood would recognize. I think this article should be our equivalent of that segment. -- Danny (talk) 14:41, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
- I was about to write a section about the guest stars, but I wasn't sure whetehr it should go before the behind-the-scenes part or after. --Minor muppetz 15:33, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
- I included info on guest stars. You suggested mentioning some memorable guest star moments, and I mostly mentioned stuff that's included in documentaries, Brian Henson's intros, compilation videos, or mentioned in Jim Henson: The Works, but this part may need to be looked at, to make sure it is neutral point of view. --Minor muppetz 17:10, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
- Part of the problem is that we're not Wikipedia. By which I mean, a lot of the stuff about characters and such is better covered on the individual articles, and I think that's how it should be. I appreciate Michael's work on this so far, and he has provided some bulk to work with. But I don't know that we really need the confusing section on character's multiple roles, or The Talking Houses. And I'm not sure how I feel about the "fan favorites" list either, unless we can include some specific quotes about them so it doesn't just feel like a random POV list. Really, on the whole, I think the paragraph(s) on main characters could be more basic and still be efective, whereas one tracking character *development* and season by season changes is a better way to deal with some of the details. The note about later seasons including Bunsen more in the show proper and not just the lab sketches, for example. I like that, it's a good observation, and would go better in another section. I'm too tired to really tackle it myself just now, as I'd be tempted to just delete things in bulk rather than try to work with them. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 02:43, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah, why I mentioned it. I'm going to bed anyway. This paragraph in particular, if someone wants to tackle it: "Most of the Muppets appeared in many contexts, not just in their own sketches or backstage. For example, while Link Hogthrob portrayed the captain in Pigs in Space, he also portrayed a police sergeant in Bear on Patrol, and frequently appeared in music numbers. While Beaker was primarily Bunsen's assistant, he also frequently helped Beauregard with his backstage duties. Although Janice was The Electric Mayhem's guitar player, she also appeared as a nurse in Veterinarians Hospital. Many characters with backstage jobs also appeared on-stage quite frequently, in group numbers, At the Dance, and the goodnights. It was not uncommon for Scooter to have his own musical number, for example. One character to have a lot of on-stage work was Miss Piggy, who frequtnly got to sing, had starring roles in Veterinarians Hospital and Pigs in Space, and frequently appeared in At the Dance and the Panel Discussions, though she wasn't in all of those sketches." There's some good info in there, but it's not really working as is, in my opinion. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 03:10, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
- I feel the same way expanding on this article as I did when we expanded on the main performers pages. Although I helped improve these pages, I tried to figure out how much could be said without being too redundant, as the various links have more information on certain subjects. Also, one difference between Muppet Wiki and Wikpedia is that Muppet Wiki has individual pages on characters, episodes, sketches, and sets, and I do not think that Wikpedia has any of those types of pages. I am pretty sure that Wikpedia doesn't have any Muppet Show list pages, either. Wikpedia does have pages for various episodes and characters from other shows, though. Info about character invovlement and evolution can easily go into the pages for certain characters. A number of themed shows are also described, but there is a list of themed episodes here. However, I don't think there are any different pages for the various seasons (I think that Sesame Street is the only season to have pages for each individual season), the guest stars in general, or series evolution. I felt a bit weary of mentioning some specific fan favorite characters, as well as memorable guest stars and moments, but those were suggested here. Like I said earlier, I mostly mentioned guest star moments that were either included in anniversary specials, documentaries, and/ or compilation videos, or that get mentioned in books, articles, docuemntaries, or Brian Henson's intros. There are some guest star moments that I think are memorable ("Whenever I Call You Friend", "Last Time I Saw Him", "Rubber Band Man", "Nice Girl Like Me") that I feel might just be memorable to me because I really like them, and on the other hand, there are guest star moments that are memorable to those who have written published books and articles on the show, as well as by those involved with the show, that I don't care much for ("Swine Lake", "Turn the World Around"). Three of the characters I mentioend as "fan Favorites" -- Lew Zealand, Crazy Harry, and Uncle Deadly -- I commonly see asked about in frequently asked questions pages, where it's obvious that fans know about them, but not their names, and I feel like Lew Zealand, Sweetums, and to a lesser extent Crazy Harry are a bit more than just fan favorites. Of course, major characters can be fan favorites too. Major characters like Animal and The Swedish Chef seem to be fan favorites with the general public. I have had trouble figuring out what to do about a section on the shows popularity. I wonder if we need to expand/ improve any other show pages. I feel like the Fraggle Rock, Sesame Street, and Muppet Babies pages are detailed enough (and I don't think there is much that can be said about Muppet Babies: I haven't seen much behind-the-scenes info, there were very few significant changes, and in my opinion the shows quality never went up or down). --Minor muppetz 04:18, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
- I added a paragraph aout the shows popularity, but I think that could be expanded. I mostly wrote about merchandise made during the shows run, as well as 25th anniversary products. --Minor muppetz 05:09, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Is it correct to say "a British syndicator named Lord Lew Grade" does his title qualify as part of his name? WeirdoWannabe 17:41, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
- Yep aparently it is but it's good to check isn't it. :P--WeirdoWannabe 19:17, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
What are the sources for the following two statements?
- "Reruns ... air ... often packaged with the MuppetTelevision segments of The Jim Henson Hour (here re-dubbed The Jim Henson Show)"
- "At some point, the aired number of reruns was cut from 120 to approximately 60 or so of the episodes."
- I have read on some message boards that reruns of The Muppet Show, MuppeTelevision, and Muppets Tonight have aired togetehr in non-U.S. countries, and I have read a long time ago on the internet that only a limited number of Muppet Show episodes have aired on Nickelodeon. I don't know what the source was or whether it also applied to other stations, but I did once post a thread at the Muppet Central message board asking which episodes of The Muppet Show were shown on Nickelodeon, and the list pretty much confirmed that not every episode was broadcast (though I don't know why). --Minor muppetz 20:48, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
- I don't know if this helps or not, but either 64 or 65 episodes aired on Nickelodeon. I taped the show every day, wound up with 60 episodes, & I know of four that I'm missing. That makes 64 total, but 65 would make more sense; 65 is a full 13 weeks of shows, five-a-day. (HairMetalLives 23:23, 3 September 2007 (UTC))
This from the credits: "Produced in association with the CBS Owned television stations." Does this mean that it was syndicated on CBS owned stations? I don't know much about syndication other than it's changed a lot in the past 30 years. -- Scott (talk) 19:08, 30 June 2006 (UTC)