Sorry I haven't been following this, but a lot of long-winded discussions get convoluted for me. Without having followed this in detail, I can at least put out there what I know about these two projects.
Idea by Jerry Juhl from the 80s, announced as the title of the next movie at D23. My sources at Disney have confirmed that the D23 Cheapest comes from the Juhl Cheapest.
Jason Segel project mostly pimped by Segel himself.
After the D23 announcement, no distinction has been verifiably been made by anyone as to the relationship of the two projects. Are they the same, or not? Was Segel's plot thrown out and now he's working on the Cheapest script? Segel has spoken of still working on a Muppet script since D23, but is he still working on Greatest while the Cheapest script is being developed independantly?
None of these are things we know. All we know about the two projects individually is what I've very briefly summarized above. The two pages are about two very different things and need to remain two seperate articles no matter how we're categorizing them. Maybe they're both still in development, maybe one is an unfinished project.
I think what Danny is trying to do is have a single place on the wiki just about "new Muppet movie news." The best way to handle that right now, and cover both topics in one area is on a blog-like page that's not restricted to the confines of talking about just one of the projects that are part of this ongoing discussion. I thought that's what Muppet movie news was supposed to be, so I guess I'm a little confused as to why we're still having this conversation.
To summarize, Cheapest is a script about making a cheap Muppet movie. Greatest is a script about the Muppets putting on a show to save the theatre. They were developed independently, and where they start to merge and/or cross over, if at all, is unknown at this time. —Scott (talk) 21:57, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
- The point I'm trying to make is that there are many things that we don't know right now. The one thing that we do know is that the working title of the next Muppet movie is The Cheapest Muppet Movie Ever Made. That's what Disney announced in September, and is the one piece of solid, sourced information that we have. Therefore: whatever information we have about the next Muppet movie should be on the Cheapest page, and should be based on the fact that Cheapest is the current known title for the movie. -- Danny (talk) 22:47, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
- We do not know is that the working title of the next Muppet movie is The Cheapest Muppet Movie Ever Made. We know that the working title for a new Muppet movie is The Cheapest Muppet Movie Ever Made (or at least it was in September). They didn't say it was the only Muppet movie being developed.
- Danny, are you suggesting that all the next Muppet movie information (i.e. Segel/Stoller, Texas oil tycoon and saving the theater, the working title of "Greatest", the D23 announcement of "Cheapest", the outline of Juhl's original concept, Gonzo blowing the budget, and the news of Bobin being tapped as director)? And that we title that single page "Cheapest"? -- Brad D. (talk) 23:22, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think he's suggesting that, no. There are two different things happening for the next Muppet movie right now. We don't know how related they are, if at all.
- The last actual information we got about a new movie was last year at D23. Everythign since then has been leaks trickling down to entertainment news sites. I think our pages are fine the way they are right now. We can change them the next time Disney makes an official annoucement.
- The immediate concern is how to cover the flow of "news" that comes out of the "press" about what's happening next with a future Muppet movie. The best way to handle that is the blog-like feed we have set up at Muppet movie news. —Scott (talk) 23:34, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
- I am suggesting that, actually. If I'm outvoted, that's okay; I just want to be clear about what I'm suggesting. :)
- I think we have one unimpeachable source who made a very clear public announcement about the title of the next movie. Yes, that was five months ago, but we haven't heard anything from a citeable source to tell us different. Everything else is a muddle of conflicting, non-official sources.
- In that case, I think what we do is use the official, citeable information as the primary information of the article, and everything else (to the extent that we can cite it) is supplementary. I think to do otherwise suggests that we consider non-citeable sources to be just as important (or more important?) than citeable ones.
- To put this in context -- we're currently keeping Power of the Dark Crystal in the In Development category instead of Unfinished because Henson tweeted last April that "development moves fwd". We consider that enough of an official source that we're keeping the page up for a whole year, rather than say "well, it's probably not going to happen".
Today's announcement in The Hollywood Reporter indicates that the flim is okey-dokey, hooray! Now that there's a director, I think we need to re-focus this page as our primary news page about the film.
The Hollywood Reporter article is the first thing I've seen that directly states that the D23 announcement is connected to the Jason Segel/Nick Stoller script. Given that, I think we should merge the info from The Greatest Muppet Movie of All Time!!! into this page.
- I agree. I'll get to it later this evening. We'd wondered from the beginning whether the Segel thing was abandoned, they were doing two simultaneously, or they were one and the same, so it's good to finally have a direct announcement from a reliable trade as to the current status. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 01:14, January 30, 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think that's necessarily true... I think it's more likely that the Greatest!!! screenplay (or a revised version of it) now has the working title of Cheapest.
- I don't think anybody at Disney has said anything about actually using Juhl's concept. When I just re-structured the page, I wrote that "The title of the new film may be a reference to a screenplay idea that Jerry Juhl and Jim Henson worked on in the 1980s." My take is that it's an in-joke -- inspired by Juhl's funny title.
- Now, I could be wrong about that, so I think the most responsible course is to put everything that we know on the page -- Segel/Stoller's leaked screenplay, the info on Juhl/Henson's concept -- without making assumptions about the relationship between any of these pieces of information. I think the new movie info should be front and center, since that's what people are coming to learn about right now, and the 1985-era info should essentially be an interesting sidebar note. -- Danny (talk) 01:31, January 30, 2010 (UTC)
- [Edit conflict, partially answered by Scott above] Yeah, I'm not sure about the Juhl thing at all. Scott, do you know anything else beyond the director announcement (that is, are there insider sources here, sent to Toughpigs or whatever, as to the script status)? Googling only shows Juhl and Segel's name connected in fan commentary and criticism, and I can't find anything to really indicate whether the use of the name is connected to the original idea at all (as indicated in discussions below), unless more has surfaced since then. I don't have the most faith in how up to date a leaked script review from March 2009 is anyway, but right now, it seems to me like we should hold off on either claim and leave the pages as is (or put it all together in a way that doesn't claim anything, as Danny suggested, if possible), since apart from definitely knowing what title the movie will be released under, leave things as are until more is released (unless there's a source that needs to be kept anonymous, which puts in a tricky position given the Wiki's own policy and emphasis on making sure everything is sources).
- Also, we don't usually do this, but if the Segel/Stoller thing is distinct, just using the same title, I'd actually suggest keeping the two pages apart, as we did with the different "Muppets in Space" things (Cheapest etc. (1980s) and Cheapest 2010) to avoid confusion or assumptions. But not right now, since in fact it seems that's what we have, confusion, and assumptions. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 01:37, January 30, 2010 (UTC)
There's a lot of buz about the next Muppet movie, and I think a lot of people are jumping to conclucions with the various facts out there and piecing together things that don't go together. Brian Henson stated in a recent inview that "They're developing more than one idea, and I think which ever develops the most and they like the best is the one that will get made and I don't know which one that will be."
What we know for sure (from various sources):
- Jason Segel and Nick Stoller were hired to write a new Muppet movie. Segel has talked a lot about it in interviews and drafts of their script, entitled "The Greatest Muppet Movie of All Time!!!", have circulated.
- At D23 Disney announced they were working on a new Muppet movie, entitled "The Cheapest Muppet Movie Ever Made!"
- James Bobin was recently offered the job to direct a new Muppet movie.
What (I don't think) we have any reliable sources for (outside of assumptions and conjecture from reporters trying to fit everything together):
- The "Cheapest" and "Greatest" projects are the same thing, just different working titles.
- Segel and Stoller are involved in writing (or re-writing) "Cheapest"
- "Cheapest" is based on Henson, Oz and Juhl's original idea
- Bobin is directing "Greatest"
- Bobin is directing "Cheapest"
- Bobin is directing Segel/Stoller's script
I suggest that we:
- Keep the page for Segel/Stoller's "Greatest" and all the information we know about that script (whether it is an in development or unfinished project is to be determined)
- Keep the page for Henson/Juhl's "Cheapest" and all the information we know about that project (whether it is being brought back into development or is still just an unfinished project is to be determined)
- Create a page for news on the next Muppet movie and include all the facts we know about the development of a new Muppet film (and link to the pages for "Greatest" and "Cheapest") untill more information comes along. -- Brad D. (talk) 14:52, February 12, 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry it's taking me so long to get to this -- I flew to Poland on the 13th and I've been on and off ever since. But -- I disagree with Brad's changes.
- There's a lot that we don't know about the current movie. We have some behind-the-scenes anonymous tips that we can't print because we don't have an on-the-record source. Besides that, as Brad says, we've got scraps of info on different projects.
- However, there is one thing that we absolutely know for sure: the current working title for the new Muppet movie is The Cheapest Muppet Movie Ever Made! The only official announcement that Disney has made is to reveal this title. I think it's silly to second-guess them, and suggest that they're going to make a movie called Greatest. Greatest was an old title, which as far as I know was never officially announced; Cheapest is the current title, and was announced very publicly.
- At some point, they might announce another title. If that happens, we'll change the article, as we always do; that's why it has the "In Development" tag on it. Until then, the only reasonable thing to do is to say that Disney has announced the next Muppet movie will be called Cheapest. Saying that the title is "unknown" is conjecture. They told us the title.
- So I'd like to change the articles back to the way they were before Brad changed them. Anybody else have thoughts? -- Danny (talk) 12:35, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
- I agree that Disney is/was developing a film called "The Cheapest Muppet Movie Ever Made!" I wasn't disputing that. It's not a question of "what's the name of the new movie," it's a question of "which new movie is that news about." It has been said that they are developing more than one idea (Jim Lewis, Brian Henson and others have said there are more than one idea/script being worked on). The title of "Cheapest" is the most official announced thing we've got - but how does all the other news that's being reported relate (Segel/Stoller, oil under the theater, Gonzo blowing the budget, James Bobin directing, etc.)
- Is Segel/Stoller involved in "Cheapest"? Is their "Greatest" and the announced "Cheapest" the same film (just with a different names)? Is there film dead or still in development (maybe as second Muppet project)? What about James Bobin? Is he directing the announced "Cheapest" or some other script or another Muppet film project? We don't have any reliable (or at least citable) sources to connect of all these pieces of movie news with one single project (let alone with the announced "Cheapest" film). And I think having a sort of disambig page to help sort out these bits (Segel/Stoller, D23 announment, Bobin) would help - especially with all the media conjecture that all these stories are directly related (for example, I think we know that Segel/Stoller are not writing a script based on Juhl's idea featuring a plot about oil under the theater and Bobin will be directing...however the rest of the internet does). -- Brad D. (talk) 14:24, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
- I think that there are things that we know. The current working title for the next Muppet movie is Cheapest. James Bobin has been hired to direct the next Muppet movie. Therefore: James Bobin has been hired to direct Cheapest. Brian Henson saying that they're working on more than one idea isn't relevant; he also said that he doesn't really know what they're doing.
- The anonymous info that I've heard does, actually, indicate that Segel and Stoller are working on a script based on Juhl's idea. We can't cite that right now, but I don't think we should muddy things up more than they need to be. We should have one page, with the working title that Disney announced. -- Danny (talk) 14:30, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
- I think that there are things that we know. Segel and Stoller were hired to write the next Muppet movie. They wrote a script, Greatest, about oil under the theater and the Muppets runiting to put on a big show to save the theater. Stoller was hired to direct said movie. In September the working title for the next Muppet movie was annouced as Cheapest. James Bobin has been hired to direct the next Muppet movie (based on what concept, title or write, we don't know). The title of Cheapest was announced 6 months ago, we haven't heard any more since, and that was back when Dick Cook was still running Walt Disney Pictures...so plans on the specifics could have changed. A script by Segel/Stoller dated October 2009 (which was a month after D23) was released with the title Greatest (which means that title/concept might still be in the running).
- The anonymous info that's out there is shaky, some indicate that Segel/Stoller are working on a script based on Juhl's idea, but others say they are reworking on their "save the theater" concept, others say they're not involved with the new "Cheapest" idea at all. Some say "Cheapest" was the title but now "Greatest" is back in; others say "Greatest" is out and it is "Cheapest". But any anonymous sources (no matter how true or reliable) are useless to us here if we can't back up the claims they assert with a link, a quote, or a source.
- I recall that Jim Lewis also stated that there are more than one script/idea/concept being activly pursued and developed (I don't recall where...MuppetCentral forums, MuppetCast, Muppet Mindset?). I don't think it's muddying the waters to keep Segel/Stoller's involvement, concept and script; the D23 announcement of the title "Cheapest"; Henson/Juhl's original "Cheapest" concept; and the Bobin news in perspective and not jump to conclucions and try to draw conclusions and connect unconnected things. -- Brad D. (talk) 17:41, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry, I'm confused by this sentence: "A script by Segel/Stoller dated October 2009 (which was a month after D23) was released with the title Greatest (which means that title/concept might still be in the running)." What do you mean by "released"? We don't seem to have that information on any of the pages.
- By released, he means it (or a version) was either leaked or sent to be reviewed by Ain't It Cool News, which is where most of the details come from, and Joe reviewed a draft on ToughPigs. I don't see where that means that the *title* might still be in the running, but other folks in the media are still confused as to which premise is being used. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 18:24, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
A draft of a Segel/Stoller script dated "October 2009" was recently leaked to the net with the title The Greatest Muppet Movie of All Time (and the plot of oil under the theater and all). Places reported on it - such as   (Joe of ToughPigs said he had a copy of the newer draft too.) One article even said "Written by Jason Segel and Nicholas Stoller, the script has been previously known as "The Cheapest Muppet Movie Ever Made," but the film, and script is actually now called, "The Greatest Muppet Movie of All Time."" So I don't think it's very clear what the next film is going to be called...or what it's about, or who is writing it.
We do have a very clear announcement from Disney that in September the working title of the next Muppet movie was "Cheapest", but anything else is speculation (it might still be "Cheapest" - or maybe they went back to "Greatest" - or maybe they're not making either, or they're making both simotaniously).
Is "cheapest" still the next film? Is "Cheapest" about oil under the theater; Gary, Mary, and Walter; and reuniting to save the theater? Is Segel/Stoller writing "Cheapest"? Is it in anyway connected to the concept from the 80s? Is Bobin directing "Cheapest" or some other new Muppet project? Is "Greatest" dead? Is "Greatest" simply renamed? None of these are 100% clear. Reporters are jumping to conclusions, but I don't think we should. We should wait to have a reliable source that clearly says so before we make assumptions. -- Brad D. (talk) 18:42, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
- I haven't said anything about oil or scripts or anything else. I have said that there is one thing that we absolutely know for sure:
- Walt Disney Pictures announced in September that the title of the next Muppet movie is The Cheapest Muppet Movie Ever Made.
- Outside of all the other confusion, that is the one absolute, undeniable solid fact.
- It doesn't matter what Ain't It Cool News said, or what script got leaked to who. The only thing that matters is that a representative of Walt Disney Pictures got up on stage in front of God, Jack Sparrow and the D23 audience, and told us the name of the next Muppet movie. Unless Walt Disney Pictures tells us something different -- that is the name of the next Muppet movie.
- To say that we can't say that as a fact flies in the face of every other guideline that we have about sources. Walt Disney Pictures is the undeniable source in this instance, and that is what they told us. -- Danny (talk) 20:16, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
- Yeah, that makes the most sense to me. The rest is just going in circles and getting confused. At this point, if we want to just leave out script details entirely but link to other sources (and park the rest on a talk page or something until it's sorted out), I'd prefer that to the current issues. I also don't have a problem with keeping Cheapest and Greatest pages but I'm not sure we really need that third news page (if we're still confused or need to assess stuff, that's what we're trying to make out here, and so far not entirely succeeding, so the news page just kind of publicizes the muddle rather than helping, to my mind). -- Andrew Leal (talk) 20:48, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
I've been finding some articles that claim that the Cheapest movie announced at D23 is a revival of the 1985 idea. However, if you dig through them all, it's pretty clear that the folks reporting on it, googled the phrase, found our article (some even cite us as a source) and worked the assumption into their report. So before we actually say that the Segel project is the same as the 1985 idea, and not just his own Greatest script reworked or something, we should wait until we hear something more definitive. —Scott (talk) 04:21, September 12, 2009 (UTC)
- As Scott pointed out, we don't know if "The Cheapest Muppet Movie Ever Made" that was announced in 2009 has anything to do with the "The Cheapest Muppet Movie Ever Made" that was developed by Henson/Juhl/Oz in 1985. Likewise we don't know if this newly announced "Cheapest Muppet Movie Ever Made" has anything to do with Jason Segel's attempts to write a new Muppet movie (or if it is releated in anyway to his previously leaked script of "The Greatest Muppet Movie Ever Made").
- Disney announced "The Cheapest Muppet Movie Ever Made!" at the D23 Expo at both the Disney Movie Magic and the Muppet Studios presentations. However they never mentioned Jason Segel (or his oft-forgotten-by-the-media co-writer Nick Stoller). The only information given regarding the upcoming project was that they are working on a new Muppet movie titled "The Cheapest Muppet Movie Ever Made". There were absolutely no other details given - no production schedule, no release date, no writers, no actors, no directors, no plot summary, no information on the origins of the concept, no names, no nothing!
- Because of all the previous media buzz (and self-promoting) of Segel writing the "next Muppet movie" and the similarities in titles ("The Greatest Muppet Movie of All Time!!!" and "Cheapest Muppet Movie Ever Made!") - I think Segel's involvement has simply been assumed by the media instead of ever actually having been announced or confirmed. Just like they assume that this is based on, and will have the same plot outline as, the Henson/Juhl/Oz concept. Nothing regarding Segel was confirmed at D23. See this thread for discussion on the matter.
- I'm going to remove all the information on Segel being involved, until we get a solid source. -- Brad D. (talk) 03:46, September 22, 2009 (UTC)
- http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/popwra...12YRreGcKeS7AL Seems Segal is still involved. I'm not sure how you want the pages edited to reflect this information, and I don't want to accidentally delete another page. I'll let someone else handle it. Sorry! Justin 04:01, January 14, 2010 (UTC)