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Since SW has been putting up official videos starring Cookie Monster and Super Grover 2.0 online on Facebook and Tumblr. Should the rest of the SG ones be documented here, or should we make a page for both of them? If so, what would it be called? - Oscarfan 19:32, September 24, 2010 (UTC)
- I'd say just treat it as a subsection here, with a divider in the headings to note they appeared online. We've used the same approach on other pages, like Muppet Labs and the Swedish Chef. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 21:51, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
- That segment is part of a PWMS episode, and not a SS segment, but a SG appearance nonetheless. -- MuppetDude 20:23, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
Is Super Grover a character?
I noticed that some alter egos are being listed as separate characters in the Sesame Street Characters category, and some are just listed in Grover Sketches. For the alter egos that have separate pages, here's where it stands right now:
Listed in SS Characters
- Farmer Grover
- Grover Knover
- Grover the Elevator Operator
- Grover the Salesman
- Super Grover
- Waiter Grover
I think Super Grover, Waiter Grover, Farmer Grover and Grover Knover should be listed in SS Characters too. (I'm willing to waive Elevator Operator and Salesman, since they don't get special names.) It's a tricky thing, cause they're not really separate characters, but you could say the same about Alistair Cookie.
A category is supposed to be a navigation tool anyway, and I think readers who are on the Super Grover page are just as likely to want to see more SS Characters as they are more Grover Sketches. What do other folks think? -- Danny (talk) 22:32, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
- My thoughts: Alistair Cookie, Dr. Bob, and Super Grover count since they all have independent existences apart from Cookie Monster, Rowlf, and Grover, and were all used substantially over the decades. But "Waiter Grover" isn't a character, it's a job (and the name is basically one we just chose over "Grover the Waiter," as the best description and most common term; the "alter ego" bit in the text needs to be fixed, I think), and it's really a sketch list as opposed to a character page (same for "Farmer Grover," which is mostly a list of book appearances where Grover was on a farm and only rarely occasions where he actually called himself Farmer Grover, "Reporter Kermit" and so on) so I wouldn't include all of those. Grover Knover is a fineline, mostly because all we know of him is two book appearances and the Out to Lunch special, which none of us have seen, so all we know is that it's Grover in a daredevil suit, and not to what extent he's a distinctly seperate facet, as Super Grover is, but I guess we could include it (in the same way we do Death Nadir and Wonder Pig, both limited sketch spoofs). So Super Grover definitely belongs in mu opinion, but I'd say no to waiter, farmer, and (probably) professor and so on. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 22:40, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
- I think when someone takes on an alternate persona, they qualify as a character. As Andrew said, Waiter Grover is just his job, but Super Grover is a name he insists on being called. It's hard to tell with Grover Knover because I'm not sure he's ever appeared on Sesame Street proper outside of the Out to Lunch special and in books. But my best guess would be that it's a persona since he's actually taking on a name rather than just having been referred to as Daredevil Grover. —Scott (talk) 23:49, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
- I agree. Super Grover should be a character, but Waiter/Salesman Grover is a job. I think Farmer Grover is borderline -- it's a sort of roleplay, like professor Grover or marshall Grover, and I sort of feel like we could include all three or none equally well. -- Wendy (talk) 23:56, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
- Looking at some of these, is it worth adding a few to the Category:Character Variants category just as they are, rather than characters? I'm looking at Reporter Kermit, for example. The phrase has never been used in actual merchandise or dialogue or anything, and it's not it's own sketch, just a fan name used for occasions when Kermit was a reporter. I'd say it doesn't belong as a Sesame Street Character or Muppet Show Character, but works as a variant. I'm not sure we'd want to add every single example of this kind (especially since they're covered in the charts usually), but for Reporter Kermit and any others which really aren't characters or recurring sketches or otherwise fit anywhere (doesn't seem to apply to Grover right now, but might at some point), that might be a worthwhile option.
- As for Farmer Grover, as of now, only one sketch actually has him as "Farmer Grover," calling himself such and maintaining it through the whole sketch. In the other one, he takes on several occupations, and the book list is divided between occasions where Grover visits a farm and only one or two where he surfaces as "Farmer Grover," so I'd still argue to leave it out, unless the article itself could be improved. For the most part, in sketches, "Professor Grover" is more of a job/courtesy title, but seems they're using him extensively in books now, as exactly that, so it's probably a character in its own right. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 00:01, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
- Okay, it looks like the general trend is that if a character has a consistent name and a (more or less) independent identity, then that should count as a character. So we can count Super Grover, Alistair Cookie and Dr. Bob, but not the waiter, since he just introduces himself as "your waiter, Grover". I can agree with that.
- Given that logic, I'd say that Marshal Grover is definitely in the Super Grover area -- he's referred to by that name, and he has a relationship with Fred the Wonder Horse that we don't see in vanilla-Grover appearances.
- I'm looking through The Sesame Street Dictionary to see how they treated the different identities. If you haven't seen the Dictionary, it's an incredibly "fan-boy" piece of work, with every character from the show up to 1980 represented. There are a lot of different Grovers in there, and this may give us a source for who's got a name and who doesn't. Here's how it breaks down:
- Named: Super Grover, Farmer Grover, Marshal Grover, Grover Knover
- No name: Grover the waiter, Grover the elevator operator, Grover the ice cream vendor
- The book is consistent about those names -- Farmer Grover is always referred to as "Farmer Grover", even if it's twice in a row. For example, the "dawn" entry says: "Farmer Grover's rooster crows at dawn. It is time for Farmer Grover to wake up." It's very clear which is which -- when he's flying a plane, he's Grover, but when he's riding a motorcycle, he's Grover Knover.
- (The one exception is when Grover's flying a spaceship -- he's referred to in one panel as "Grover the astronaut" and in another as "Astronaut Grover". A third panel refers to "Grover's spaceship", which I guess breaks the tie.)
- I agree with most but I still disagree with Farmer Grover, but I think it depends on whether we're using that single *book* to define the alter-ego. One of two sketches only has him introducing himself as Farmer Grover. In Down on the Farm with Grover, Grover just visits and works at his uncle's farm, and at one point says "Now I'm Grover the farmer." I have the dictionary and its a great source, but I'm not sure it's the defining word on the subject; other Sesame stuff is inconsistent (in a Treasury volume, on one page, Grover is milking a cow to demonstrate sign language, and says "I, Farmer Grover..." but a photo of Grover in farm garb is labeled "Farmer Grover," but the caption says "I, cute, Furry Grover love this little yellow flower." So with the exception of the Dictionary (and probably Farmer Grover the bookl, which I lack), it's inconsistent. I think Farmer Grover is more than the waiter etc., but closer to "Reporter Kermit," except we actually sourced the name. I think it's also made greyer because of the way the page is, though. If it's possible to make a distinction between those occasions where Grover does indeed call himself or is referred to as "Farmer Grover," and those where Grover farms or is just on a farm, I'd probably buy it as a character page. Right now, looking at the article, it doesn't say "alter-ego" so much as "barnyard Grover stuff." -- Andrew Leal (talk) 03:00, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
- I agree about Down on the Farm with Grover... I just clarified that on the Farmer Grover page. The other book appearances listed on that page seem legit, though. I would say that six storybooks all referring to him as Farmer Grover stands up as evidence.
- I think the question of how many sketches Farmer Grover appears in isn't necessarily a good one... The character didn't take off on the show in the way that Super Grover or Marshal Grover did, but it seems that the intention was to create another Grover identity. The fact that he only appeared on the show once is circumstantial. He's got at least six book appearances, including one called Farmer Grover, which is more than Marshal Grover has. We're counting book characters as Sesame Street Characters, so I think the book appearances qualify him. -- Danny (talk) 03:04, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
- It still strikes me as more a job than an alter-ego ala Super, Marshal, or Alistair Cookie, but it could work with a better organized page. Right now, in fact, that's my biggest issue even, that it doesn't read or look like a character page, and one of the sketches (which I can't locate right now, the multijob one) definitely doesn't fit. Of the book appearances, Farmer Grover is most probably legit and it sounds like What Ernie and Bert Did on Their Summer Vacation fits. But I've seen the stickerbook listed, which is Grover in overalls surrounded by veggies, no name, so is it possible for anyone to double check the other two? Three books and one sketch is still decent evidence, but it's not as consistent as the others and not as clearly an independent identity. I'd like to know what Scott thinks on this one, but by now, I think my beef is mainly with the article, and if we can source and rework it so it looks like a character page (and a second section on related farm appearances where he's not explicitly Farmer Grover), I'd be fine with categorizing it as one. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 03:00, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
That makes sense -- I'm all about Better Living Through Research. I just looked at Rise and Shine, and that's legit: "In the country, Farmer Grover gets ready to milk the cows."
By the way, that's another piece of evidence that Farmer Grover is different from Grover -- both Rise and Shine and the Dictionary show Grover waking up on the farm. Everybody knows Grover lives in the city. -- Danny (talk) 03:15, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
- Also, My First Trip to the Farm includes the song "Farmer Grover Has a Farm", so I think that's legit too. -- Danny (talk) 03:19, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
- Great. So for those that don't fit, it's just Down on the Farm, the sketch with "Grover comes along wearing a white coat and a stethoscope; then carrying a pitchfork, and talking about his cows, chickens and the barn" (which is his response when a fireman is called, and obviously no relation to the rustic Farmer Grover, just costume confusion), and I'd say the stickerbook (borderline, but no text label, and an Elmo's World stickerbook is a pretty slim fit as far as a Farmer Grover mythos is concerned anyway). The Treasury volume cited has its cake and eats it too, but I'm about to scan the photo page I mentioned. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 03:23, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Andrew took the talk box off, saying that the discussion is over, but I want to make sure before I make any changes... I was proposing putting Super Grover, Marshal Grover, Farmer Grover and Grover Knover into the Sesame Street Characters category. Right now, Marshal Grover is there, but the others aren't. Is it okay for me to put the other three into that category? -- Danny (talk) 00:18, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah, we'd agreed with that, unless Scott objects to the Farmer. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 00:38, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah. Personally, I'd say Super Grover and Marshal Grover are major and distinct enough to count as characters, but Farmer Grover, even with the nice evidence for the name usage, is pretty minimal, as is Grover Knover. I just moved Reporter Kermit to Character Variants, since it's not a character at all. So here's an alternative. Super Grover and Marshal are characters equal in statue to Alistair Cookie, but Farmer, Grover Knover, and probably Professor Grover can be moved to Variants. How's that sound, Danny? If you don't like it, though, I'm fine with lumping them all as characters. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 02:17, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
- I don't really see the logic behind that. The difference between Marshal Grover and Farmer Grover is just that Marshal Grover was used on the show a lot, and Farmer Grover wasn't. Since we count illustrated characters as SS Characters, I don't think that distinction makes sense here. We've got Goldie-Snuffle and Marilyn Monster in SS Characters. I think our choice all along has been to make SS Characters a big tent, so I think it's big enough to include Grover Knover. -- Danny (talk) 04:35, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
- I think it makes sense, but like I said, the ball is in your court. Grover Knover is mainly because we know so little about him, but even with name sourcing, I still think there's a big difference between Farmer and Marshal Grover ("Riding out of the pages of history, Marshal Grover and his Wonderhorse Fred.") Anyway, the point is, do what makes you happy. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 06:02, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
- If that's a pity vote, that's okay with me... I'm not proud. By the way, I have the script for Out to Lunch somewhere -- I bought it on Ebay a little while ago. I would run and get it right now, except it's packed in a box that I still haven't unpacked yet. Somewhere. But someday I'll find it, and then we'll have more to say about Grover Knover. I promise. -- Danny (talk) 06:08, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
Danny added this to the list when he created the page for Episode 3971 which came from the now defunct sesamebeat.com (no luck with archive.org either). My guess is that something got lost in the description from one summary to another re-wording and that the writer on sesamebeat saw the Natasha sketch that we have a screenshot here for, and that there's only one SG & Natasha sketch. I could be wrong though, so if someone has Episode 3971 and can confirm that it's a different sketch, we should add it back. —Scott (talk) 06:17, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
- Don't worry, I have the episode. Will do. --Hilleyb 06:19, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
There seems to be some sort of problem with the "featured appearances" section. It was like that before I last edited this page, and when I edited I tried to figure out the problem, and couldn't. When I previewed my edit, it was actually formated like the "sketches" listing, but when I edited it was back to how it was. Does anybody know what the problem is? --Minor muppetz 20:07, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not sure I'm seeing the problem. Can you post a screenshot? —Scott (talk) 20:15, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
- I just looked at the page again, and I don't see it now. And according to this pages history I'm the last one who edited this page. Weird. --Minor muppetz 20:30, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
A clip from a scene with SG and Bening appears in Sesame Street's All-Star 25th Birthday. In the portion shown, "Super Annette" hails a cab for her and SG to go superheroing together. Does anyone know if it's a stand-alone sketch or part of a Street story? — Scott (talk) 20:28, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
- It's a sketch; Annette wants to travel with SG on his missions, so the two of them try to figure out how to get Annette to fly. -- MuppetDude 17:30, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
more Super Elmo?
In addition to the two sketches with Elmo currently listed here (the problem with the cape, and the switching places skit), this appears to have been a promotional photo taken on set (obviously not posers). The background is different than the two screenshots we already have, but that doesn't mean it can't be from the same sketch as the "cape problem" (Elmo seems to be wearing the same outfit), just taken in front of a different backdrop. Anyway, I'm just tossing out the idea that there may be another Super Grover and Super Elmo sketch out there. — Scott (talk) 04:55, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
- The sketch we have titled as "Superhero School" has recently been in rotation on V CAST and I can confirm that Elmo appears wearing the same exact costume as seen in the sketch our article calls "Super Grover and Super Elmo" and the above production photo. Still no confirmation of that backdrop, so the same possibilities exist as pointed out above. Just tossing this new info out there. —Scott (talk) 02:23, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
SUPER GROVER ANYTHING YOU CAN DO WITH ELMO SUPER GROVER BARBER SUPER GROVER BOXES SUPER GROVER GROCERY BAG BURSTS SUPER GROVER CROSSING THE STREET SUPER GROVER STOPPING THE FIGHT SUPER GROVER TELEPHONE BOOTH SUPER GROVER TELLY ABOVE BELOW SUPER GROVER SUPER BABY BIG LITTLE
- SUPER GROVER OUT AND IN SCHOOL -- this may be the superhero school sketch
- SUPER GROVER BRIDGE
- SUPER GROVER SAD BUTTON
The preceding is a list of music cues registered with ASCAP directly related to Super Grover sketches. It looks like we've got some of them, but may be missing a couple. — Scott (talk) 05:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
- I figured that about "Bridge", but it is odd that there isn't music titled "Super Grover Intro Music", or something like that. Should we assume that those are the official titles of the sketches? --Minor muppetz 20:54, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
This page has been here for a long time, but untill today, I realised that there weren't any individual Super Grover sketches listed. This is probably the most major series of sketches from the early years to not have much listed. I described the sketches that I could remember off-hand, but I have a feeling that there are a lot more. I think there is one sketch transcribed in Sesame Street Unpaved that I forgot to list. Feel free to add more. Oddly enough, I don't recall seeing any Sesame Street episode pages that include Super Grover sketches, so it might be hard to track down earliest known episodes. --Minor muppetz 20:07, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
- Not sure, but I think it was Aleal who added it to Jerry's bio. -- Zanimum 17:34, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
- Actually, I'd moved it from Grover's Alternate Identities, which had too much Super Grover info, but it's well-sourced if bland, I'd checked on that. It was included in most of Jerry Juhl's obituaries, courtesy of the Associate Press wire, which generally included a variation of the following: "He created Super Grover, a superhero version of Grover, the hairy monster." That's it, no details. Not to say that AP and press in general don't sometimes get things wrong, but in this case, I'm inclined to believe them until evidence shows otherwise, even if we have no colorful anecdotes to add to it just yet. Andrew Leal (talk) 17:53, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
- No, I think that's just a coloring book artist's weird idea of what his costume looks like. -- Danny (talk) 03:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
- Funny thing is, the licensee had the cover photo of Super Grover that he/she could have drawn from. Geez. -- Zanimum 17:36, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
- It didn't even occur to me at the time, but this is actually how Joe Mathieu drew Super Grover. The black and white just looked odd enough to me to ask about it here. The illustrator of the sketch pad must have been going by the style guide, since most of his illustrated appearances show him in this full body costume. —Scott (talk) 18:34, 9 January 2008 (UTC)