Talk:Scooter's Alternate Identities
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"Alternate Identities"
I waited awhile to mention this, since on the whole Category:Character Variants is one of those categories which, while informative, is mostly just fun, and where rigid rules and stuff are stifling. And clearly this has been a labor of love for Justin and it shows. Still, in general, with The Muppet Show, given the whole variety show premise, we haven't included examples unless either a) it was a recurring persona (Dr. Bob, First Mate Piggy, Bear on Patrol) or b) otherwise especially notable (like a famous fictional character or sustained for an entire episode) and not just a costume change for a brief skit. Strictly speaking, only the cage dancer and Wizard's assistant are true alternate identities akin to Bob Cratchit and the like, not just Scooter actively playing a role, but most are notable or interesting enough to be worth including and fit what we've done with other characters. Here's the ones I don't think work even by a loose definition: Simon Smith is just a costume change really (and even though the song is supposed to be sung by "Simon Smith" so to speak, the same could be applied to many songs performed by other characters as one shot skits), the sailor (not an alternate identity by any interpretation), and "a Roman." There's other skits where Scooter appears in costume, but I don't think they need to be included here. Supehero Scooter is also iffy, *but* it inspired an action figure and it's been done on Fozzie Bear's Alternate Identities. I'm not sure about "The Son" either, though "The Father" is included on Rowlf the Dog's Alternate Identities (I'd take out both since it's a short skit with no pretense that Scooter is anything but a performer in costume, who even critiques the skit within it, and while they're enacting a poem, the characters are vague and not even specifically labeled in the source material; we could as easily call Scooter's role "the beamish boy"). So basically, I'm planning to take out Simon Smith (the image is nice but it has its own page), the sailor, Roman, and unless anyone can make an argument, "the son." It also might not be a bad idea to merge the items from Scooter's Alternate Ages into this and rename as a joint page, given how few there are (see also Statler and Waldorf's Alternate Identities and Ages amd Bean Bunny's Alternate Identities and Ages? Thoughts? -- Andrew Leal (talk) 00:35, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- As far as "The Son" goes, isn't it a character from the Jabberwocky poem? It's been so long since I've read it or Alice in Wonderland, I can't remember, but I think that is brought out on the Alice in Wonderland page. If so, wouldn't that be considered an "Alternate Identity"? --Justin 01:08, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- Sort of. There's a character in Jabberwocky who is told to beware and addressed by another figure "Beware the Jabberwock, my son" and "Come to my arms, my beamish boy." It's assumed that the two characters are father and son, but that's all, and not concrete or known at all outside of their context in the way that Porthos or Alan-a-Dale are. And one of the reasons I question it is because Scooter appears before the sketch, comments on it, and appears earlier in the same costume (in the "Falling" song) but not playing any character, just a chorus singer. Scooter appears in medieval garb in the Pearl Bailey episode, not as a specific character, and there's tons of period costume changes. This is why I think it makes sense to limit any sketches or others from The Muppet Show, where it's obviously the same characterplaying a role and not a true alternate identity (as opposed to the costume films, Christmas Carol, Treasure Island, Wizard of Oz, or even video games like Spy Muppets where within the film, Bob Cratchit or the Cowardly Lion are completely different characters). I'm not making a hard and fast rule, since it works better to examine these things on an individual basis, but if it's a direct impersonation (as with Kermit as Rosenthal), recurring role or a specific *named* literary character with an identity outside the role, or notable within the context of the episode (Kermit as Ms. Maskn). Take a good look at Kermit the Frog's Alternate Identities or Miss Piggy's Alternate Identities to see the general pattern used there. There are tons of one-shot sketches where they changed costume and maybe, within the context of a song's lyrics, one could garner a name or identity, but there's generally little profit in tracking each and every one of those. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 01:18, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- Ah. ... Gotcha. --Justin 15:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- Sort of. There's a character in Jabberwocky who is told to beware and addressed by another figure "Beware the Jabberwock, my son" and "Come to my arms, my beamish boy." It's assumed that the two characters are father and son, but that's all, and not concrete or known at all outside of their context in the way that Porthos or Alan-a-Dale are. And one of the reasons I question it is because Scooter appears before the sketch, comments on it, and appears earlier in the same costume (in the "Falling" song) but not playing any character, just a chorus singer. Scooter appears in medieval garb in the Pearl Bailey episode, not as a specific character, and there's tons of period costume changes. This is why I think it makes sense to limit any sketches or others from The Muppet Show, where it's obviously the same characterplaying a role and not a true alternate identity (as opposed to the costume films, Christmas Carol, Treasure Island, Wizard of Oz, or even video games like Spy Muppets where within the film, Bob Cratchit or the Cowardly Lion are completely different characters). I'm not making a hard and fast rule, since it works better to examine these things on an individual basis, but if it's a direct impersonation (as with Kermit as Rosenthal), recurring role or a specific *named* literary character with an identity outside the role, or notable within the context of the episode (Kermit as Ms. Maskn). Take a good look at Kermit the Frog's Alternate Identities or Miss Piggy's Alternate Identities to see the general pattern used there. There are tons of one-shot sketches where they changed costume and maybe, within the context of a song's lyrics, one could garner a name or identity, but there's generally little profit in tracking each and every one of those. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 01:18, 5 May 2008 (UTC)