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Talk:Projects with Muppet Crew Connections

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Panwapa

Should it really be on here if it has its very own show page? Nothing else that is on here has its own show page. George B. (talk) 06:51, September 8, 2009 (UTC)

I presume that it's only still on here, because it was an evolution of Sesame Street World Wide Kids; when we didn't have much info on that project, I used this page as a holding area. What's the concensus, should this project be mentioned here? -- Zanimum 13:26, September 8, 2009 (UTC)
Just removed it. Rule is definitely that no Muppet/Henson/Creature Shop project belongs here, nor any production with its own page and relevance (referenced, has Muppet Mentions, guest appearance) since they have their own connection lists. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 21:29, September 29, 2009 (UTC)

Movies?

I noticed that so far everything on here is a television series, but would this also be a page for movies with Muppet Connections? George B. (talk) 03:03, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

What do you have in mind? — Scott (talk) 03:09, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Nothing specific at the moment, but just as there are television shows that have common cast and crew, I don't doubt there are movies that have a fair number of Muppet crew, but aren't Muppet movies. George B. (talk) 03:11, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
I just added one - "Team America: World Police" (13+ connections). -- Brad D. (talk) 07:14, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, that's kinda why we titled it this way, so we could include things like DVDs that weren't TV Shows. If the list gets out of hand (which I don't see it doing), we can always split em out later. — Scott (talk) 15:43, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Actually, I'm wondering about a few of the recent additions to this page. though not in the title, it's sort of implied that the projects would be puppetry, and/or the connections be dominated by people who worked on Muppets/Creatures (since this was originally conceived when we got rid of the problematic "Non-Muppet Productions" category). I question the inclusion of animated series here. DragonTales I sort of buy, since it was produced by Sesame Workshop. But JoJo's Circus is connected purely through three celebrities who played themselves in Muppet things, two writers, and one producer of animated inserts for Sesame. Franklin is even slimmer (one puppeteer/voice actor, one Canadian Sesame Park guest, and two Nelvana people, connected just because of Dog City). I don't know. If we're going to go that route, which I suppose doesn't hurt, then we might as well go full blast, and include The Jeffersons (9 connections, including a Dinosaurs regular, a Sesame cast member, and a Muppet Show dance puppeteer), to say nothing of something like Sheep in the Big City (created by a Sesame writer, with a voice roster including Joey Mazzarino, Jerry Nelson, Stephanie D'Abruzzo, and Ruth Buzzi). Thoughts? -- Andrew Leal (talk) 16:08, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
That's a good point. Would it make sense to split them up in some way. Perhaps separate lists for crew and actors? It makes me think of Movies with Multiple Muppet Show Guest Stars, which is a fun list. But why are we limiting it to just TMS guest stars? It would be fun to compile a list of productions with connections to any Muppet guest star regardless of what Muppet series of movie they appeared in. — Scott (talk) 17:03, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I sort of wondered about that myself. This always seemed to me like the place where we could put this sort of stuff, regardless of what the connection might be, since we'd like to list the connections, but no other coverage is going to be given. It's only one page, although splitting it up would be fine. George B. (talk) 17:27, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Yeah. I love connections, really, but it seems a little awkward right now. Either seperate lists for crew and actors would work for me, or by type (puppet, live action, animation). So seeing how many Sesame Street cast members/guests/etc. were on Lou Grant or how many Muppeteers did voices in Robot Chicken or Star Wars wouldn't suddenly be stuck in the middle of Miss Peach and the Kelly School or something. I don't know if I can propose anything more specific, and it's by no means a pressing issue, but something worth thinking about. I'd like to find some place to list the 70s B movie Theater of Blood, for example: one TMS guest star (Vincent Price), one Muppet film star (Diana Rigg) and cameo (Robert Morley), one Creature Shop actress (Coral Browne), and one Creature Shop voice actor (Michael Hordern). But I don't really feel comfortable just plunking it down in this list, amongst the puppet stuff. It would stick out like a sore thumb, which is what Franklin and the like do now. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 17:32, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
What about "Crew Connections" for what we use this page for now, and "Cast Connections" for the other stuff we've talked about? "Crew" being puppeteers and the like, while "Cast" being people working as on-screen actors. Would that work? — Scott (talk) 17:34, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I *think* it would work, but I'd like to be clear on how you envision it. I.e., two seperate pages, or just subdivisions on the page, or under each entry? -- Andrew Leal (talk) 22:20, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I was thinking two seperate pages, but I'm open to ideas. — Scott (talk) 01:38, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Two pages works for me. In which case, given discussion on Category talk:Behind the Scenes, and the existence of Movies with Multiple Muppet Show Guest Stars and Movies with Multiple Muppets Tonight Guest Stars (which could be folded in, I suppose, but I like maintaining those distinctions for easy browsing, while also allowing us to include movies which have cast connections beyond Guest Stars), I'd recommend creating a "Category:Connections," or similar title, for those four pages, and any others of that kind that come along. In contrast to Muppet Mention/References articles which just happen to have connections in addition to them, this would be for those pages which are nothing but cast/crew connections. How's that sound? -- Andrew Leal (talk) 02:01, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Sounds good to me, Jack! — Scott (talk) 02:03, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Sounds like a good idea to me, too. Two pages makes sense. George B. (talk) 22:50, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Two pages sounds goot to me too. -- Brad D. (talk) 01:04, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Alphabetizing

Okay, so I get why the links are the way they are. But I noticed that a lot of the entries aren't in any sort of alphabetical order. Okay to go ahead and fix that? George B. (talk) 06:08, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Chronological from start date would better fit with what we've done elsewhere. — Scott (talk) 06:12, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Okay, and that's fine for the shows, but what about the names? I mean like the ones for Splitting Image, i.e. "Francis Wright, Peter Harris, Philip Casson, Richard Holloway, Malcolm Stone, Chris Langham" which as far as I can tell is a random order. George B. (talk) 07:13, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
They probably are random. Definitely, go ahead and alphabetize names, that's how we've handled it with parallel lists like Movies with Multiple Muppet Show Guest Stars. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 07:29, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Perfect, thanks! George B. (talk) 16:13, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Linky Link Link

Seems like everything is linked right now, multiple times. Want me to go through and remove the duplicates? George B. (talk) 05:18, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

No, but thanks... It's best to link everything when there's a list format. If you're looking at a particular item further down the page, and one of the names isn't linked, then you have to search upwards to find that link. It's easier when everything's linked. The "link sanity" idea is for sentences and paragraphs. -- Danny (talk) 12:39, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
'K. Thought it might have been something like that, so I asked about it first. Glad I did. George B. (talk) 17:26, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Projects with Unspecificied Numbers of Connections

How should a show like Pee-Wee's Playhouse be integrated into this list? There are a number of listed connections in both puppetry and animation, but the article is a little vague as to a specific number of connections (par inclusion here). "Several" being a key word in the article that makes inclusion here a little difficult. Thoughts on this matter? --Cantus Rock 21:24, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Just go through the credits on IMDb or elsewhere. That's how we do it on everything. I didn't list them all on that page since it wasn't the point, and this specific page was mainly a means of dealing with the gray Non-Muppet Productions area, using numbers only because that's how Movies with Multiple Muppet Show Guest Stars is organized. I'll probably get to it later, but if not, feel free to do the work yourself (but as far as I know, the only puppeteer connections are Alison Mork and Kevin Carlson, linked to from the page, and Bartlett and Canemaker are the only names I can recall as animators right now, though I think there's a few others who just don't have pages for their Sesame work). This isn't meant to sound cranky, by the way. It's just not something I personally feel like digging into right now. Really, I'd say just add in the names we have now, and the number can always shift later if/when more are discovered. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 21:37, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Pee-Wee's Playhouse wouldn't belong here. It's already got it's own page. This article is for projects that don't have Muppet Mentions or References. — Scott (talk) 23:14, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

World Wide Kids

What's the source for the World Wide Kids info? I can't find any info on it. — Scott (talk) 20:16, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I can't find anything either, not even confirmation of its existance under that name. Apparently Nick added it. Andrew Leal (talk) 22:38, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Here's the complete text of Leslie's message... talk:Leslie Carrara/3 August 2006 -- Zanimum 18:31, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Nick, that's helpful! — Scott (talk) 18:36, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Note that I don't know for sure that it's "not-Sesame", but I'm guessing it is. Can't have all of the characters parents heading off to war. -- Zanimum 18:41, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Here's a reply to my inquiry, from Leslie's webmaster... -- Zanimum 14:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Nick,

The second DVD does not have any Sesame characters at all. Whole new thing. Whole new premise, etc...Same players though. I didn't get much information on it, other than no SS.

I believe that World Wide Kids is the name of the overall program. I think the outreach trips to foreign countries falls under this as well. Weather or not it is actually "public" or just the production company its falling under, etc. I really don't know. Might be a question for Sesame Workshop to make sure its accurate information.

Take care,
Spunky

other stuff

Okay, I've just migrated info from six or so non-Muppet shows. The thing I'm not sure qhat to do with is other crew connections, like Mitchell Kriegman and Paul Andrejco on Big Big World. But other wise the page would be called "Non-Henson Productions with Multiple Muppet Production People" which is even more awkward than the present title. Maybe a sub-section for listing those? Andrew Leal (talk) 18:23, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

What's wrong with keeping the It's a Big Big World page? -- Scott (talk) 18:41, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
See the current discussion in Talk: Law & Order and I mentioned it on current events. Brad created Law & Order in non-Muppet productions, justifying it because more than 11 actors in Muppet or Henson shows had guest starred on it and it uses the same studio as Sesame Street. The question of dumping Non-Muppet Productions had previously arisen in the talk over the now deleted "Puppeteers" category. Where do we draw the line? I had to delete a Figment page recently. Andrew Leal (talk) 18:46, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
How about "TV Shows with Muppet Connections"? "Non-Henson Productions" feels awkward to me. -- Danny (talk) 18:57, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
That works for me! Though it requires a seperate list for films like Return to Oz, but that works, so we can toss in designers and writers and stuff. Andrew Leal (talk) 19:00, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Oh. I thought the disclaimer at the top of those pages handled it. "Similarities from a production standpoint" should include Paul Andrejco and Mitchell Kriegman. Wouldn't it have been easier just to edit that text to clarify? But whatever. So, I guess Book of Pooh and Little Shop of Horrors and all those pages are being deleted? Seems like a waste. -- Scott (talk) 19:02, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Not necessarily. Everything from Book of Pooh has been merged into Winnie the Pooh (reference, celebrity), and Blue's Room is all in the Blue (dog) celebrity page, minus some plot and supporting cast stuff. And that's the point of this list, Scott (and I guess a movie list now)! So any Muppet relevant info on shared performers/crew can be retained. What's on Little Shop of Horrors? Really, just a list of people. Big Big World has plot stuff and a full credits list, but do we need that? Even The Muppet Movie doesn't have a full credit listing yet. Andrew Leal (talk) 19:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
And Scott, please read the threads to get a full picture. I'd said the text could use clarification, than Danny said he wasn't sure we needed the category after all. Brad and I agreed. Sorry you missed the whole debate, but I'm running around and working pretty darn hard to make sure nothing of Muppet relevance is actually lost. Is it such a crime to lose the It's a Big Big World title card and not know who the wranglers are? (Though I am increasinly wishing that, when these topics come up and a statement is made that those things belong in a general puppetry Wiki, that there *was* a general puppetry Wiki. Hmmm.... If only I had time to mess around with a Wiki request...) Andrew Leal (talk) 19:09, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I would suggest that redirects be created for the deleted pages to here. That way the links on the performer pages will still work. Also, can we rename the article yet again to Projects with Muppet Connections? I have a Wonder Woman book I've been meaning to add to the wiki and this is the perfect oppurtunity. -- Scott (talk) 19:11, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Before we change it, let's talk about it for a second. I think "Projects" is too vague. Is there another word we can use? -- Danny (talk) 19:14, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Another word other than "Projects"? I think that's the one they use.
I'm also sad that the little bit of love we had for Patrick Holmes will be gone. -- Scott (talk) 19:18, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
It isn't, Pigeon-Holed is in Muppet Mentions. Scott, seriously, if you feel some type of way about this, go read the Talk:Law & Order discussion. We've covered all this stuff. -- Danny (talk) 19:19, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I can't keep getting involved in past conversations on obscure talk pages. I missed it when the topic was hot, so I miss out. I'm fine with that. This talk page, there the conversation is relevant to the subject, helped me to better understand the policy change. So I'm good.

Also, Pigeon-Holed will be kept, but It's a Big Big World is going. That's what I meant. Just to clarify. But again, I'm good. I'll just tell him you were trying to eradicate his name from the wiki. Nyaaaah. -- Scott (talk) 19:26, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Dude, the past conversation was last night. The obscure talk page was linked from Current events, from Andrew's note on your talk page, and by both Andrew and me on this talk page. The only reason you're missing out is because you won't bother to read the other page. That's really annoying. -- Danny (talk) 19:28, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Alright, now the conversation's in two places. I just replied to you on my talk page. But I don't know where you got the idea that I didn't read the Law and Order page. I wouldn't have known to look at it until you mentioned it today. Changes were already happening and the conversation was too old for me to partake in. Don't be annoyed. I'm cool with not being a part of every conversation. It's my fault that I didn't look at Current Events when I know policy changes so quickly. -- Scott (talk) 19:33, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry. My leg hurts and I'm mad at the world. -- Danny (talk) 19:34, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Sympathy on the leg, Danny. Scott, why not add Holmes' Big Big World involvement to Pigeon Holed, as a trivia note or something? Dave Hirsch and I have been using The Electric Company page to note interesting things about the cast members who otherwise have no Muppet connection. Really, I'm running around trying to save every little scrap. All we're really losing is a title card, a PBS link, Melissa Creighton and her friends, and the fact that Big Big World has CG backgrounds and is a metaphor. And Kreigman's own page could be fleshed out to discuss the latter stuff. Andrew Leal (talk) 19:38, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Oh yeah, I totally got that halfway through this talk page. Which has been helpful along with the L&O discussion (which I still maintain is an odd place to discuss the topic -- although admittedly I didn't know it was on CE until the changes were taking place).
So, are we doing a page like this for movies too? -- Scott (talk) 19:44, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I originally thought of sticking it all here, but if we're sub dividing, it yes. I thought I mentioned it, though I know it;s getting lost in the mountain of depressing soul crushing. Andrew Leal (talk)
I'm sure it's somewhere on one of the number of talk pages where this is being discussed. My Wonder Woman book only has four connections anyway. -- Scott (talk) 19:50, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

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