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performer again

Clubhouse-credits

credits

Is there any on-screen evidence that John T voiced Phoebe? Looking at the archived resumé linked below, it looks like the entry could have been meant to state that he was a standby for both Phoebe and Elmo. Every MC sketch I've seen has been Alice as Phoebe, and she's even credited onscreen here. —Scott (talk) 20:20, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I think this question was assumed to be settled too prematurely (I was on the road and couldn't get to it). First, I can't access the video on dial-up, but was this "Phoebe" or "Groogel"; can you make a screenshot of the credits you mention? Note the name change discussed below, and there's more than just the one source for Tartaglia. Over a year ago, Tony stated the following: "Alice originated the role in season 32 (where she was originally called "Groogle"), then in season 33 she was re-named Phoebe and taken over by John." That sounded as if Tony had seen what he was talking about, and it would be worth checking on. Tartaglia's Broadway profile lists "Phoebe Monster and others" for Sesame Street. I think you may have been a little too hasty in assuming that the character never had more than one performer, especially considering she actually had more than one name. --- Andrew Leal (talk) 04:44, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
No one else was replying and I made the change based on on-screen evidence which trumps fan memories and fuzzy Broadway credits. The character is called Phoebe in every sketch I've seen aired, including the one released on DVD, all of which she's performed by Alice, not John. —Scott (talk) 04:52, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't think the credit list you used trumps anything because nothing is specific, no pairing of performers with roles, whereas we have an official resume, the Broadway site which is taken from actual playbills and thus not "fuzzy", and articles like this, which are used for publicity purposes, official, and quote as follows: "On Sesame Street he performs "Phoebe Monster" and is Elmo's standby." In the sketch you link to, what is she called? -- Andrew Leal (talk) 04:58, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
As I said above, she's called Phoebe. The credits list Clash, D'Abruzzo, Mazzarino and Vernon in uppercase bold as the stars of Monster Clubhouse. On-screen credits outrank the indiscernable info from the resumé (which is where the Broadway credits come from). Tartaglia's involvement with the character should be noted, but we need more information. —Scott (talk) 05:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
To clarify: I'm calling the source of the resumé into question because its presentation of information is unclear. Does the resumé entry mean he was an Elmo standby as well as a Phoebe standby, or something else? It's unclear the way it's presented, and subsequent uses (Broadway billings, etc.) appear to stem back to this unclear source. From the hard facts we have at hand, we don't currently have anything to support that he performed the character on-screen. So to go back to my original question: is there on-screen evidence that John T performed this character anywhere? If there is, we should document that. Someone with tapes of those episodes would be able to help out here tremendously. —Scott (talk) 17:06, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
The new text works for me. I'm far less skeptical than you of the resume (which, given how many resumes I've read, seems abundantly clear, or else it woudl read "Phoebe Standby/Elmo Standby," or even more likely list the Elmo Standby first if that's all both were) or other sources which, while clearly stemming from Tartaglia/agent, do not seem to be merely parroting an online resume, especially since they precede that website, and we all know that recasts are far from uncommon, and given how many Monster's Clubhouse skits seem to have been made over two seasons (of which I sadly ignored them all at the time), I'm doubtful that you've seen enough to rule it out. But I definitely agree with you that finding a skit with his performance is the best evidence. I left a message for Tony, asking if he has any tapes. In the meantime, I think the note on the page acknowledges the situation nicely. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 18:35, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, it works for now and hopefully we'll get some on-screen confirmation from Tony, Brian or Andrew T. —Scott (talk) 19:55, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I've got all six MC episodes, from both seasons 32 (original versions) and 33. The season 32 segments refer to her as "Groogle" (and Googel is called "Mooba"), and she is renamed Phoebe in season 33 reruns of these segments. The season 32 segments feature Alice Dinnean performing her, but the season 33 segments (in which there are only two made) has John Tartaglia performing her. When the season 32 segments were reused for the next two seasons, they were usually edited for time purposes, and whenever the characters original names were used, the new names were dubbed.
As for the character's voices, there's a pretty clear difference that Alice and John shared the character for the two seasons; Alice for s.32, John for s.33. It was more based on who was available during the season. Judging from the shows, Vernon temporarily left the show by s.33, and came back for a few brief performances (in the Six Feet Under segment, for example]]), so John adopted the role. I hope this has clarified the issue a bit. -- MuppetDude 15:03, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Performer?

Anyone have a source for the info that Alice Dinnean-Vernon played Phoebe? I could never get through "Monster's Clubhouse," so I don't even recall exactly who Phoebe was, but I keep coming across sources that suggest John Tartaglia played the role, including this credits list and assorted articles about his leaving "Avenue Q" (although a few also mention his working on Sesame Animal Jam, so that knocks off a point for credibility). Was Phoebe recast? --Andrew, Aleal 02:36, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Aha! Now that he's famous and all, his current site no longer needs such things, but an Internet Archive crawl of Tartaglia's old site revealed his resume, which specifically identifies Phoebe Monster as his character (and also marks him as Elmo's standby). So again, what proof is there that Alice Dinnean played Phoebe? Otherwise, I'll add a performer box for Tartaglia until more info comes. --Andrew, Aleal 02:47, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Okay, the only sources I've found for Alice Dinnean Vernon in the role are Sesame Encylclopedia and IMDb, neither of which are fool proof, though the former is often more reliable than the latter. Anyone actually remember these sketches and what Phoebe sounded like, or whether she may have changed performers? Otherwise, I'm going to go ahead and change it. --Andrew, Aleal 16:58, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't sound like John, sounds like a female performer, but anything's possible. Yosi, 25 February 2006
I seem to remember reading that Phoebe was originally Alice, then John took over. Or possibly the other way around. I think Artie (MrTheFrog) knows. GrantHarding 00:00, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, Grant! Well, at least things are slowly coming out. So I can either paste in the code rather than a performer box, or wait until we get more. I'm convinced from all the print evidence that Tartaglia must have played Phoebe, the question now is whether he was first or second, or even if they did an alternating system ala when Frank Oz was easing out of his roles (unlikely, but not impossible, especially if the change came when Tartaglia was just hitting it big with Avenue Q). --Andrew, Aleal 02:03, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Grant is right; Alice originated the role in season 32 (where she was originally called "Groogle"), then in season 33 she was re-named Phoebe and taken over by John. -- MuppetDude 17:28, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Do you mean "Googel"? Because she's a different character. -Ryan PrawnRR 17:40, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
During season 32, Googel and Phoebe had different names; Phoebe was "Groogle" and Googel was "Mooba". When they appeared during season 33, their names changed (explaining why parts of the segments were re-dubbed, using the new names). -- MuppetDude 17:56, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Good to have it cleared up, but in that case, while I'm not sure this is a case of Mona Monster and Ingrid where the characters had distinct enough personalities despite puppet recycling to merit different pages, by rights this should probably be moved to Groogel, and the performer note specify who played which. And I don't even care a whit about the Monster's Clubhouse, so I'll leave it to you guys to discuss. --Andrew, Aleal 17:59, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
If it helps:
The first version was Mona, with a yellow nose and blue eyelashes. The puppet was later retired, and in 1984 was used as Frieda in a song about her baby brother (a pre-Natasha appearance). In the late 1980s she became Juliet, and the features remained the same. By 1993 the same puppet was used, only this time she was given brown eyelashes and a green nose. The character finally clicked, and the design has stayed. I hope this has cleared things up.
But I'd like to know if anyone has ever heard the word "Mona" used on the show. The only evidence I've got was from Plaza Sesamo, and several of the classic Muppets had different names then (Enrique, Beto, Archibaldo, etc.). -- MuppetDude 20:10, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
I wasn't asking about Mona, just using her as an example of same puppet, different voice, different name = different character. And I imagine Mona was used on the show, or at least by the behind the scenes people, as she was named as such in one of the Sesame Street Live shows as documented by Nate. My question was whether Groogle and Phoebe deserve seperate pages, or whether it should be a footnote here, or whether Groogle should be the primary page (then again, Fuzzyface and Grover have seperate pages, which is perhaps a closer example than Ingrid/Mona, in that Fuzzyface/Grover had the same function, and indeed the same performer, but moderately different voices, design, and especially personality). -- Andrew, Aleal 07:49, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

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