List for list's sakeEdit
This page feels like making a list for the sake of making a list. It doesn't illuminate anything in particular. It's possible that there might be something to say about the episodes that didn't have Piggy or Fozzie... but when it gets to the level of Janice and Zoot... who cares? -- Danny (talk) 01:50, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
- Someone cares, I guess. For the record, I started this page as a way of consolidating Muppet Show Episodes That Didn't Feature Miss Piggy, Muppet Show Episodes That Didn't Feature Fozzie Bear and Muppet Show Episodes That Didn't Feature Scooter. This list doesn't bother me, but I admit that the individual ones did. —Scott (talk) 02:01, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah, it's left over from the list craze. I'm not too crazy about it in itself. *But* several pages for main characters link to it, as a convenient alternative to listing anywhere between 79 and 100 or more episodes that *did* feature them. So it is kind of useful there. But when you come to the band members, including Zoot, Janice, Floyd, and especially Animal (who wasn't used as often as people remember or think because of his later merchandising), where they tended to miss half or even 75 percent of whole seasons, I think a list of episodes they *did* appear in would be far more productive and interesting. So I think my feeling is rework those (if the episode lists seem too long, then it might be worth keeping here), and a probable keep for Piggy, Gonzo, Scooter, and Rowlf. Statler only missed a single episode, and then his absence was a plot point and is noted on character and episode pages, so I'd say just drop that one. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 02:24, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
- Oh, and there's also the accuracy issues for Zoot, Janice et. al. If an episode isn't included, does that mean the character appeared, or just that the editors in question hadn't added it yet or seen certain episodes? A list documenting *absence* rather than presence is pretty useless if inaccurate (and in general, other users are more apt to edit lists or articles to add character appearances or references, not bothering as much with when they *didn't* show up). Looking at the numbers for Zoot, for example, if accurate, he was in all but three episodes in the first season, but then between 10 and 12 appearances tops for all subsequent seasons, so I'd say that would definitely work better as a list (the total would be well under 60 out of 120 episodes). -- Andrew Leal (talk) 02:36, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
- I agree that it is a little obsessive -- why aren't Dr. Teeth, Bunsen, Beaker or Sweetums on this list? Where do we draw the line for "main characters"?
- I mean (according to this list) Animal did not appear in 42 episodes (all of which are listed here). Is he really a "main" character if he didn't even appear in well over a season's worth of episodes? Floyd missed 53 episodes and Zoot was left out of 55 episodes (both over 2 seasons' worth; or 40% of the total episodes) Maybe we should draw the line at if they missed more than a season's worth of shows (24 episodes). Rizzo the Rat is a fairly main character in the Muppet ranks today; however Rizzo was only featured in 19 episodes of The Muppet Show -- we don't list the 101 episodes he was not in here. I say if we need such a list, lets just list just the characters who appeared (not counting opening/closing sequences) in over 96 episodes (80% of the total show; or 4 seasons worth). Kermit and Waldorf, I believe, were the only ones to appear in every episode; and Statler just missed one. Having a list of the few tip-top recurring characters (in order) could be interesting. But as it is not this seems a bit subjective and random. -- Brad D. (talk) 02:49, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
- I think that we should at least keep the characters on this list who have their own filmographby pages. I have thought it a bit odd to consider The Electric Mayehm (except maybe Animal) as main characters in this sesne (I've also thought it a bit odd for Statler and Waldorf, but they are in almost every episode). I find it odd that Zoot would be considered a main character over Dr. Teeth, but it makes sense to me that episodes without Dr. Teeth aren't listed here; After watching the first three seasons on DVD and looking at the characters filmography, it seems as if Dr. Teeth made many appearances in the first two seasons, but after that they become fewer. He really only has two featured appearances in the thrid season (and oen is a UK spot). But I feel like Fozzie, Miss Piggy, Scooter, Gonzo, and maybe Rowlf and Animal belong here. --Minor muppetz 22:23, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
- Looking at the history, it looks like Scott created the original version of the page with lists for Miss Piggy, Fozzie and Scooter. After that, Lenny the Lizard added Gonzo, Rowlf, Animal, Statler and Floyd Pepper. Dean added Janice, and then Lenny added Zoot. So I think this started out as a page that was making a particular point about Piggy, Fozzie and Scooter, and then a couple of contributors took it more into the "list for list's sake" direction.
- The thing that would make this page work for me is if we turned it around, and made it into a "top 20" list of which characters were in the most episodes. It would have Waldorf at the top with 120 episodes, Kermit and Statler with 119, Fozzie with 115, and so on. That would make the point about which characters were the most popular and enduring in a much clearer way. -- Danny (talk) 01:25, 13 October 2008 (UTC)