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mess

I missed the discussion that merged a bunch of our articles. I propose moving several of them back for a couple reasons. 1) The original pages provide a clearer history of the articles' history. 2) Citations are easier to keep track of in separate articles. 3) Some of these unfinished projects are quite infamous, are still talked about on fan forums and blogs, and are thus being searched for in Google. We're hurting our Search Engine Optimization by not having articles for them. Here's what I propose moving out of this collection:

And then this Proposed Muppet Projects article would still retain those projects that don't really need their own pages:

  • The Musical Monsters of Turkey Hollow
  • Picture-book specials
  • Muppet Voyager
  • Miss Piggy mystery books
  • Screaming Edith
  • Muppets in Camelot
  • The Muppets Leave Hollywood
  • Pipe Dream
  • Untitled superhero project
  • Kermit's Christmas Capers
  • The Muppets' Run for President

Thoughts? —Scott (talk) 23:24, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree. During the original discussion, Johnny Carson and Kermit, Prince of Denmark struck me as pages which should not have been merged (apparently Kermit and Rowlf weren't redirected, just copied). Some of the others didn't have much info but have been expanded. I kind of feel like Muppet Time Travel needs work, though. What's there is brief and has a citation tag, though that can probably be removed since many of the specifics came from User:Cantus Rock and his copy of a script draft/outline. He updated his profile briefly in February, but given how detailed he made the Postman Joe page, I'm sure he can build on it. I'm not sure about Muppets in Space. Even if it was developed as a separate script, it seems like it's part of the history of Muppets from Space. Not to denigrate Thatcher's script or conflate the two, but reading the passage, I found I had to switch to the details on the Jelly jar page and check what was on Muppets from Space. As is, that page briefly notes the "in Space" in a trivia note, but I think it would work better to incorporate the text here (and some dates and specifics on the Welch's page) into a "Production Background" or "Early Development" section (much like merging the Halloween stuff). As far as The Next Muppet Movie, I see where you're coming from, but as it appears on the page, it does look pretty stubby and seems to reference knowledge which the user may have had but didn't put down in greater detail. It also has a cite tag, which seems to follow an actuialy citation of The Hollywood Reporter; did someone add the reference and forget to take out the tag, or did someone else question the veracity of that periodical? This definitely proves your point about edit histories and making it harder to track who added what. Still, it would be nice to know if we can add more to it before breaking it back out (if Brian Lynch is talking about it all over the net, presumably we can quote one of his statements, even if it's just sentiments about the script). Time Travel also feels a bit skimpy; is there more? I also don't like (and never really did like) using so many representative pictures in what could be a misleading manner, without at least a caption or context. By that I mean images that have no direct relation to the unfinished project, sometimes not even thematically; at one point, Kermit as Blue Boy was weirdly attached to Kermit, Prince of Denmark, and the nice pic of Fozzie and Kermit which clearly relates to the first Muppet Movie seems odd attached to the 90s Next Muppet Movie, even with the title, random Muppet Show ghosts for the Haunted House, and so on. Only the actual Johnny Carson and the Muppet Machine image (and there's plenty more in Designs and Doodles, so that page can easily be expanded), the Muppet Monster Adventure image (since it does seem to follow more of a direct path), and probably the black and white Rowlf (because it is contemporaneous and places that script in the context of Rowlf's TV stardom) seem to fit. The rest are nice, but I feel like they need disclaimers at least or some sentence to note "The subject was, however, touched on lightly in Muppet Show episode blank" or something of the kind. (I kind of feel that way about Bert & Ernie, Goodnight!, since the image is from a Sesame Street Live and not the still in early development show which from most accounts will omit full body suits, but I'll add a note to that myself in a bit). I'll probably look at this again later. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 00:06, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Okay, I restored a number of articles as proposed. What's left here is a list of minor known projects, more akin to the lists we've put together for Minor Movie Mentions, Minor TV Mentions, Minor Book Mentions or Minor Comics Mentions. The others have a sufficient amount of information to support their own articles and/or allow for enough room for growth which isn't conducive to a list meant to collect those items that aren't as notable. —Scott (talk) 00:15, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Sources

The following information on three proposed Muppet series was floating around the wiki on the old "Proposed Muppet Projects" page. The only source given for it was MuppetZine #13, Summer 1995. Does any one have any more information on what these project were intended to be, where the info came from, or any other official sources or quotes to substaintiate or expand them?

Muppet Voyager
This series, planned in 1988, continued Jim Henson's interest in connecting all the people of the world. The show would have filmed in a different country every week. The travel costs and technical problems involved probably doomed this idea from the start.
The Island of Lost Muppets
Proposed miniseries in the late 1980s that would have introduced new characters called the Orangs.
MuppetMania
Proposed in the late 1980s for television.

-- Brad D. (talk) 23:23, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

There are some facts that should have citations here.

  • In 2000, Oz discussed resurrecting the idea of The Cheapest Muppet Movie Ever Made.
  • In the early 2000s, Shemin proposed a film involving the Muppets getting superpowers.
  • In 2004, Marx and Lopez were approached by the Muppets Holding Company about Kermit, Prince of Denmark.

If anyone has sources for these claims please add them. -- Brad D. (talk) 23:08, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I added the sources that I've got for a lot of the projects that were mentioned in MuppetZine -- the picture-book specials, Muppet Voyager, Miss Piggy mystery books and Screaming Edith. Unfortunately, I don't have my source for The Island of Lost Muppets or MuppetMania anymore. Maybe someday we'll find that again.
Meanwhile, to echo Brad's note above, there are a bunch of things described on this page that don't have adequate sources:
  • Untitled Halloween project: I have the TV Guide article in which Brian Henson mentions the Halloween special, but he doesn't say anything about the Muppet characters turning into monsters. What's the source for that claim?
  • The Muppets Leave Hollywood: This item was sourced to another 1998 Muppet Central article, "Henson buys new Muppet movie story". That quotes an article in Variety -- does anyone have access to a magazine archive to get the reference? I also found a reference on Imaginenews.com, and apparently David Stern is including a credit for The Muppets Return in his standard bio these days.
  • The Muppets Haunted House: This item refers to press kits, press reports and a press junket. Does anyone have these references? Here's what I can find: A fan interview with Steve Whitmire in 1998 mentions Muppet Haunted House. The Hollywood Reporter article from ViewAskew mentions that Muppets Haunted Hotel is planned for a 2000 release. Cinema Confidential has a 2001 posting called "Another Muppet movie..." that says a script for Muppets Haunted Hotel was written by Joey Mazzarino, and originally planned for a 2000 release. Jim Hill mentions Muppet Haunted Hotel in a 2004 article, "Much Ado about Disney & the Muppets", as an old script that might get revived as a TV-movie. Meanwhile, Patrick Read Johnson's CV mentions A Muppet Haunted House under "Feature Development: Writer-Director".
  • Superhero project: Is this based on personal conversations with Craig Shemin?
  • Muppet Time Travel: No reference on this one, although I think there were some references in TVGuide.com interviews with the Muppet characters at one point... John Derevlany's website mentions this (and something called Blackwater Zoo, also for Henson).
  • Kermit, Prince of Denmark: Some of this is sourced, some not.
  • Kermit's Christmas Capers: Sourced to a 2005 Greg James article on Muppet Central, "Kermit's Christmas Capers to air this holiday season". Greg wrote that "the plans for an all new Muppet Christmas television special was announced a few months ago by Chris Curtin", but I don't know where it was announced.
So does anyone know where we can get more info on these projects? -- Danny@fandom (talk) 03:13, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Here's a link to a Muppet Central article announcing that Frank Oz wanted to revive The Cheapest Muppet Movie Ever Made: [1] The quote comes froma Frank Oz interview, but Oz doesn't specifically say that it's "The Cheapest Muppet Movie Ever Made", just that he wanted to revive a script from Henson and Juhl, and we don't know of any other unproduced Muppet movies that they worked on scripts for. --Minor muppetz 16:22, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Merge Unfinished Muppet Movies/Specials

In Unfinished Movies and Unfinished TV Shows we have a whole bunch of proposed Muppet films and specials that never got off paper (some had scripts written or purchased, some were just script outlines, and some were just concepts or ideas). Many of the pages were just one or two short sentences giving not much more than the title and the time frame of development (and maybe a quote). Similar to what we did for Optioned Properties, I put this page together . It merges and cleaned up all the unfinished Muppet projects on the wiki in here (some were already listed together on Proposed Muppet Projects while others had their own pages; plus added the election special and Segal/Stoller film). I think this is a much stronger article now (rather then a bunch of stubs). There are a few undeveloped projects that have enough information for their own page (such as possibily Kermit, Prince of Denmark) but there are still so many that really don't have much you can say about them besides the title, basic concept and timeframe (such as the superhero, Camelot or Christmas Capers projects). What do people think about mergeing all these articles into one page? -- Brad D. (talk) 03:30, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

This has come up before, and thus the reason for Proposed Muppet Projects as is. I think this is a good idea, and the fact that most of the projects, once merged, are accompanied by random images (thematically similar but in no way actually related to the project) is revealing. A few caveats, though. Most obviously, we have no indication that the Segal/Stoller film is dead (as we do with everything else on the list) and right now there's still enough interest in it that it's better to have it at it's own page than buried at the bottom here, where it's hard to find (and would be, even with redirects); it's still in development as far as we know and should stay there (and chances are there's more recent updates we may have missed, but it'shardly been a year yet in any case). I also think Johnny Carson and the Muppet Machine deserves its own page, since unlike most of the others, we actually have a lot of details, we know characters conceived for it, and so on. I hadn't realized how sad the current article is, but it's easily improved, taking info from Designs and Doodles. Finally, Kermit, Prince of Denmark has more meat to it, but it's also a special case, since it didn't originate from within Henson. Rather, Marx and Lopez wrote it for a workshop, then sent it in to the Kleban people and won an endowment, and only *then* sent it in to Henson. So in short, it's an interesting story and, with the list of songs, it doesn't fit well at all with the one sentence to one paragraph summaries. Right now, though, those are the only three which definitely seem worth keeping on their own pages. Of the rest, The Adventures of Rowlf in Outer Space is the best, but also seems to be developed as far as we can go (since it made it to script outline, it seems, not a full proposal), and it's not out of proportion with the other entries, so I could go either way. In general, though, I think this format is definitely an improvement. Really, it's another of those things where, in scattered conversations, we'd already pretty much agreed it was a good idea, but either everybody was unsure of how to organize it, or nobody felt like messing with it at the time and it was then forgotten. So kudos for doing it, Brad! -- Andrew Leal (talk) 04:11, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
And ah, looking around, we haven't even started a page for the new proposed Muppet movie, probably because we try to avoid titles like "Untitled Segal/Stoller Muppet film." We might want to go ahead and start one, though, since it's beyond rumor (Variety confirmed it) so we have a place to park tidbits and source claims (and the election special seems to have been canned almost before we could confirm enough to start a page). There's a whole lot of Segel quotes about what he hasn't liked about past movies (the Muppets Underwater thing) and what he hopes to do, and so on. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 04:16, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, if we want to start a "in development" article for the Segal/Stoller film I'd be behind it. I think we just haven't done it because we don't have a name. I just put some info here because we didn't have anything on the wiki and technically it is still, at this time, a proposed film (albeit an activly in development one too).
I'd be okay we want to keep the Kermit, Prince of Denmark article (the films' development has an interesting history behind it, and it has the most substance and information of any failed project on the wiki -- it even had songs written for it, demos of which have leaked out). We can just have a short summary and then link the main article on here. And if we want to develop "Johnny Carson and the Muppet Machine" with all sorts of details and give it it's own page too, I'd be fine with that (but right now the page is really just a stub). Overall, I think this page will be better to manage and better to read than a short stubs. -- Brad D. (talk) 04:32, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
Right. I just don't want to redirect Carson yet; see Haviland P. Squill, for example of what's out there, and other pages that link to it with tidbits. I might even get to it this week, but it's definitely easily fixable within the short term based on available material (office is a mess so not sure where my copy is just this moment, but the info's all in there, and others probably have Designs and Doodles as well). It's just that everyone forgot about the article once it was created, a common enough ailment, usually alleviated (when it's a case of easily accessible books or footage, as opposed to hard to get not-commercially available shows) by a talk page note. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 04:54, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
I don't have time to go back and memorize the exact link, though it is on the Frank Oz page, but Frank Oz's IGN interview is the source for him saying that he wanted to revive The Cheapest Muppet Movie Ever Made. However, he doesn't specifically say anything about the title or plot, just the fact that Jim Henson and Jerry Juhl developed it, so I don't know if it's close enough. I also recall seeing a press release from around summer 2001 or 2002 (or maybe it was Tough Pigs compying a press release) that listed "The Muppets Cheapest Movie" as a project that was being planned. --Minor muppetz 18:18, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Articles merged here

Muppet Institute of Technology

This unfinished project links here off the Douglas Adams page, but there's nothing here about it. I may have more info in a little bit. Apparently Hunt went to GAMBIA with Herbie Hancock as part of this?! --Max riverbottom (talk)

It used to be here, but it's got its own page now: The Muppet Institute of Technology. I fixed the link on the Douglas Adams page. —Scott (message me) 20:14, March 5, 2014 (UTC)
Ooh, thanks! Max riverbottom (talk)