| Talk pages are no longer used.|
Please use the Forum for discussing article changes.
Elmo Mondiporg??? I'm so glad we settled on Maurice. --Andrew, Aleal 04:40, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Maurice vs. Kermit
When was the sketch "Say the Word" made? When was it that this monster got the name Maurice? And was he ever called Maurice in any other sketches afterwards? And was the monster named Maurice or Kermit first? -- BradFraggle 22:19, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
- My feeling is that either way, Maurice is a "real" name, and "Kermit the Gorf" is a one-sketch joke. What do other folks think? -- Danny Toughpigs 22:23, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
- I second that. Same for the other monsters who appear in that T-Shirt sketch. How'd that sketch get to be so popular, anyway?
- PS. I think Maurice was identified as such in a sketch with Grover and some other monsters about first and last (in which they all turn around and make Grover "last"). --MuppetVJ 22:37, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
- It is cool to see a page for "Joe Monster" and see all the little things he's been used in. But sometimes "Joe" was called other things in his little bit parts. I would say unless a one name was used more often, go with whatever came first. We don't list Barkley as "Woof-Woof" even though that name came first because Barkley was used more on the show and in publications. And Kermit the Frog is not referred to as "Bob Cratchet" in all the skits when "that frog" appeared but was not referred to by name, because Kermit is the more used name for that frog character. Mr. Johnson is a prime example of this as he's also been called Mr. Smith, and Mr. Blue in productions but the character's "main name" is Mr. Johnson. But, for example, if a generic monster appears in only 5 skits; 2 times unnamed (in 1976 and 1978), 1 time as Bob (in 1977) and 1 time as Fred (in 1978), and one time as Joe (in 1989) - go with Bob, the name that came first, (and mention the one time Fred and Joe things in the Bob article). But the 2 unnamed performaces are listed as Bob.
- Now in this case I would say the Kermit name was just a joke. But I don't know which came first, and I don't know if Kermit was used just as much as Maurice (was Maurice was a one-sketch thing in "Say the Word" or if he was called that in any other skits, books, whatever...) But out of principle, we should have a rule for naming these generic multi-use monsters - and use it. In each article we can mention the appearances with other names and if an alter-ego-role was big enough have a page about it make one (and link to it in the "main name" article), but all unnamed appearances are the "main name". Example: If Maurice is the "main name" for this monster; Maurice was in Say the Word and the Frazzletones, and you can link back and forth to Kermit the Forg's page. However when he appeared unnamed (i.e. Frazzletones and such) that would not be listed on Kermit the Forg's page as an appearance nor would Kermit be the one listed as a member of the Frazzletones.
- So, in my opinion, if we want to call this monster Maurice (which I have no problem with) it should be because either A) Say the Word, where he got the name Maurice, came before The Wonderful World of T-Shirts, or B) the name Maurice was used more than that one time, or C) both A and C. Altough Kermit may be a 1-time name and a joke, if Maurice is also just a 1-time name, I would go with the first one. Again, I'm not sure if Maurice was called Maurice othertimes, nor which came first. But we should have a formula for labeling and tracking these multi-use monsters. -- BradFraggle 00:19, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
- That 1969 skit was remade in the early 80's (Bruce Monster is also in it, as well as another green monster with a pink nose whom Grover identifies as "Harry"). I happen to have both versions on tape. That's where my user name comes from -- you name it, it's almost certain I got it. --MuppetVJ 07:19, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
- Heh, I think we can almost certainly rule out the possibility that "Kermit the Grof" was used just as much as Maurice. However, while I really would prefer to use any other names used for the monsters in that sketch for repeat appearnces, mostly because it's work for me to have to check and see which one was Grof, Forg, etc., the first use thing is a point. But if his first apperance was actually as an unnamed member of the Frazzletones, should we refer to him as the Frazzletone? I'd say no. So to a large extent, convenience and recognition may well trump first appearance. Anyway, as far as actual evidence, so far there's the Sesame Encyclopedia page, which claims he was a good friend of Grover. Our own page on A Celebration of Me, Grover claims that Kermit/Maurice appears in the inserts. Can anyone check the DVD to see if he's named? I can almost bet if named, it wouldn't be Kermit the Grof, but if not named, it may not help. But personally, my own vote would be to use Maurice Monster as the main page, because it looks less weird than to have "Kermit the Grof" listed in all the other productions where the monster was a background character, even if it would set a bad precedent. --Andrew, Aleal 01:04, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
- I think we need to give preference to real names over joke names. It's obvious that "Kermit the Grof" was for that one sketch only; those monsters weren't called "Kermit" anywhere else. I think trying to have a strict rule for this stuff gets us into trouble, because there's always going to be exceptions. We seem to do all right just muddling through on a case-by-case basis. -- Danny Toughpigs 01:55, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
- I dunno. I'm sure somebody will come up with one at some point! -- Danny Toughpigs 02:15, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
- I agree that the three "Kermit's" from that sketch shouldn't be considered their official names, as those were part of a joke, at least two of those three monsters have been refferred to by other names, and I don't think that sketch is really popular enough for the average fan to see any of those monsters outside the skit and think, "My favorite character is Kermit the Gorf" (or any other name). I don't think it's popular enough to be put in a listing of the 25 best Sesame Street moments of all-time. Oddly enough, when I was at work today, I was thinking about how these characters shouldn't officially be known by these names (though it's okay to give them pages for their alternate names in addition to their real/ first used names). --Minor muppetz 05:04, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
- I did some searching on other Muppet sites and they say the the other two Kermits (Forg and Grof)had their first appearances in this skit (which I also learned was in 1978). I also learned that the Kermit the Forg puppet does not have any other name, but Kermit the Grof has also called Bruce Monster. -- BradFraggle 05:09, 20 February 2006 (UTC)