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This video came out, so we can move it to a real category... But I'm not sure where it belongs. We have a category for [[:Category:Unstable Fables|Unstable Fables]] videos, but I don't know if we have one for Henson Company Videos? There's a Sid the Science Kid video coming out too... -- Danny (talk) 05:39, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
- If more videos of Henson Company shows are going to be coming out, I think we should go ahead and make a category for Henson Company Videos, or Henson Videos, or something like that. -- Ken (talk) 05:51, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
- I think a Henson Company Videos category would work.
- However this does bring up the question of how much coverage are we giving to Jim Henson Company projects that don't feature any physical puppets/creatures? Earlier we said that individual episode and song articles were too much; but we have some stray Sid the Science Kid and Skrumps character and performer pages. How much Henson Company merchandise will we include? There's a Sid the Science Kid CD coming out next week and they say a replica of his toy microphone is planned for the fall (along with toys, books, etc) -- and I'm sure Dinosaur Train will eventually have it's share of merchandise too. There are a bunch of franchises produced by the Jim Henson Company that don't feature physical puppets/creatures -- These include Sid the Science Kid, The Skrumps, Frances, Unstable Fables, Dinosaur Train, Good Boy!, Sam Plenty, The Fearing Mind, and Family Rules (to name a few). How much individual coverage are we giving to franchises with no physical puppets/creatures in them?
- What are the bounderies? Would it be out of line if I created a page for the Sid soundtrack, or Sid ringtones, or Sid's stuffed dinosaur Arnie, or his dog Philbert? What about pages on Walter Tortoise, Murry Hare or Buddy the T-Rex? Is Sid's DTV publc service announcement, Sprout's Coo, or the Sid walk-around permissible? How much coverage is "too much" coverage?-- Brad D. (talk) 06:26, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
- My personal preference is to have as little of this stuff as possible. I like that it's covered on Brad's HDPS wiki; I don't think we really need it here. The connection between Sid the Science Kid and the Muppets is pretty tenuous.
- Then should this just be merged in with Frances?
- And should the content of [[:category:Sid the Science Kid Characters|Sid the Science Kid Characters]] be merged with Sid the Science Kid; and [[:category:Skrumps Characters|The Skrumps Characters]] with The Skrumps; and Sid the Science Kid (video) with Sid the Science Kid? -- Brad D. (talk) 06:39, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
- [Cross posted with Danny but including anyway, with minor change]- See the discussion at Category talk:Henson TV Shows for the Unstable Fables policy, which was no character pages and only voice actor pages if they fit with out definitions of celebrity. Likewise, the consensus on Sid in the Special:Community songs was no song, episode pages, etc. (and this to my mind would include random ringtones and stuff but not DVDs, but to keep the character pages, so Philbert might fit in especially since there have been articles about the mocap use of a real dog and so on (to my mind, I don't think there's much to say about Arnie or that couldn't be noted on Sid's page, and as you note, the Henson Digital Wiki has all that stuff blanketed so there's not a huge need for it here). Dinosaur Train hasn't aired yet, but from the mention of Singapore, this sounds like it will be ala Unstable Fables, outsourced animation but no actual puppetry or even Henson Digital involvement, so that would merit a show page but no character pages or anything else. I think Danny's concerned about the new stuff mostly, and as far as merges, video probably makes sense, but I personally don't see any harm in actual HDPS major characters if there's pictures and performers and so on and since the pages already exist for those (and additions seem fairly limited). That's my take, anyway, just like we have Category:Creatures but don't bother with the human actors or soundtracks or action figures and so on. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 06:41, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
- The animation for Dinosaur Train is not being done by Henson (although the writting and storyboards are) and some live-action segments with real kids have been filmed at the Henson Lot for the show too -- but no puppets or creatures, and no Creature Shop or HDPS work. I would put it in the same class as Unstable Fables. -- Brad D. (talk) 07:27, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
- I'm just still not clear on which Henson Company projects get what type of coverage.
- I can see how keeping the pages for the digital puppets (the characters) make sense -- they are characters created by the Jim Henson Company and brought to life by a branch of the Creature Shop (just like Creatures). So it makes sense covering them here. And it's true that we don't bother with the human characters or soundtracks or action figures for every Creature Shop project -- we also don't do videographies for these types of productions (we don't have a page covering the home video releases of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, The Country Bears or The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy).
- However these aren't just productions with Creature Shop effects, they are also produced by the Jim Henson Company. And when that's the case we have given fuller coverage to them (even if there is limited or no Creature Shop connection) - such as with MirrorMask, Five Children and It, Gulliver's Travels, or Good Boy!.
- Maybe some other areas need to be cleaned up - but I see things like [[Mrs. Bagwell]], [[Marion Weadle]], [[MirrorMask Buttons]], [[Stephanie Denise Griffin]], [[Liam Aiken]] and Mistress and ask why not Sid Merchandise, or Unstable Fables Voice Actors or Dinosaur Train Characters.
- This issues is probably bigger than Frances (video) and might need to be moved to Special:Community. But I'm just not clear on how the lines are being drawn. -- Brad D. (talk) 07:27, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
- Again, this isn't affecting characters really (or hasn't with Sid) so I see no problem with Mrs. Bagwell (as for Marion Weadle, Sam Plenty is moribund, the site gone and just redirected to Henson and no videos, so a merge is probably in order). But MirrorMask was wholly Henson produced *plus* admittedly minimal Creature Shop digital effects *plus* explicitly conceived as a follow-up to Labyrinth (not a sequel, but a "Give us something Labyrinth-esque.") I guess one could make the argument that Sid is trying to be Muppet-esque, though that's tough, but personally I see no issue with merging or deleting the merchandise if it's really seen as an issue (I don't think it is). Unstable Fables Voice Actors doesn't really make sense; as is, we divide by Muppet, Creature, or Animation voices, but in the latter case, it's not actually animation voices that fit the definitions we've established in other discussions. Even creating a page for a one-shot Sesame Street animated voice actor is iffy (we've generally limited it to voices of recurring characters or of multiple segments or if they fit in some other way or are a celebrity in their own right). So celebrity Unstable Fable voices or those with other connections get pages, but otherwise, there's not a lot of point, and Dinosaur Train characters don't fit at all since it's all outsourced and even with storyboards and such it strikes me as pretty far removed in a way that a Creature Shop-effects film with tangible characters isn't. Griffin, Aiken, etc. have a home in Henson COmpany Actors, so I don't see a reason to nuke them necessesarily. I know you want a clear distinction, but as is often the case on the Wikipages), a general rule of thumb prior to page or category creation works pretty well and for the rest, as we've done with stubby pages and duplicated info and other articles that we look at and think "What's *this* doing here?", it's better to ask it on the specific page rather than list generalities. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 12:01, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
- I think it's a good idea to try to hammer it out a little more. We should probably do it on Special:Community rather than here. As Brad is pointing out, we're not being very consistent, and it's difficult to figure out (or remember) what our policies are.
- This is a good moment to have this discussion, because we're entering a new phase. It was easy to deal with computer animated Henson stuff for a while, because it was mostly planned / abandoned projects. Now we've got a few successful animated projects, especially Sid, which means there's a lot more information that we need to figure out how to integrate. We've also got a full HDPS wiki, which is covering all this stuff in a really great, detailed way. So this is a good time to take stock again, and figure out what belongs on the wiki and what doesn't.