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- I would agree in general, because I don't know who most of these are, and they're hideous celebrity creatures. I'd make an exception for Paris Hilton as the queen of the celebcreatures, just because it's amusing to have her on the wiki. Nate, if we had to cut these down some, who could you live without? -- Danny (talk) 02:37, December 14, 2009 (UTC)
- I think Nate not unnaturally assumed that since it was a live event it counted (we have other pages of that sort from Sesame Workshop events and the like, some Nate created, some by others), based on the guidelines we had at Category talk:Celebrities, but I agree that the en masse factor here is an aspect. Several (Joey Lawrence, Allison Janney, Ziggy Marley) have other connections, while others on this page aren't even interacting in the picture, just sort of blocking Red from view, or otherwise just standing there (Kevin Sorbo, I'm looking at you) so they shouldn't count period. Has there been a mention of Paris Hilton elsewhere? And if we redefine how to approach "interaction" when applied to live appearances which are photographed, then there's actually a range of folks scattered throughout Category:Celebrities, of various fame, who are there in that context (in one or two cases, we hadn't even IDed the photo's context yet). Of course, just comparing, there is a fairly big difference between Alan Alda and most of the folks on this page. It was more than just a casual photo-op, with Alda and Bunsen basically participating in the same press conference, not just Alda stopping by to have his pic taken with a Muppet which feels like the case with most of the folks here (at least Ziggy Marley shows some Muppet love by hugging Red, but we expected that from him). So maybe something like that, roughly, could be used as a guideline for these appearance/photo shoot things. If the person was a presenter and shared duties with a Muppet, Kermit handed so and so an award or something, and of course the all important "can we say more about this person than one sentence, that they were at this event, to make an interesting page" rule, then it probably works. I'll scour the category later. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 03:14, December 14, 2009 (UTC)
- For convenience sake, whatever's decided, a quick rundown of those with other connections who would stay linked: Allison Janney, Joey Lawrence, Ziggy Marley, Debi Mazar, and even Karina Smirnoff. Nobody else seems to have had any other interaction or been referenced (and several of the kids aren't even really celebrities outside of having maybe one movie credit and so on). -- Andrew Leal (talk) 03:31, December 14, 2009 (UTC)
Here's some of my thoughts on who was photographed with Red at the event. I felt one page that had coverage had the best quote, "most of these people aren't cool enough to be pictured with Red". However, this is the direction celebrity is going in America. I admit that a few of these I didn't know who they were (there were a few I left off the page completely. I felt old and out of touch). But that doesn't mean that to the new generation, these aren't stars. I know its apples and oranges to compare Taylor Spreitler to Allison Smith, since one was in Muppet Magazine and one was at a celebrity fundraiser, but both are (or were) celebrities at the time they interacted. It's just like Paul Dooley, at first Danny didn't know who he was by name recognizition, but later realized he was "that guy". Newer generations wouldn't know who he or Snub Pollard are, but they are celebrities from their time, and the Muppets have been around for fifty five years now, so their cultural connections are going to change with the times.
To me this appearance was a big deal. Red was toted out as the focus of the entrances. And most of the pictures are of the celebs, or "celebs", interacting with her. A few are not (Debi Mazar and Molly Quinn). I just feel though that to discount a page for Kellie Martin, Melissa Joan Hart or Carmen Electra isn't right. If an actor like Gary Beach of John Barrowman have pages from The Producers (and don't get me wrong because I ADORE both of them as actors) just because there were Pigeons in the movie from the creature shop, or a lot of the actors in the Creature Shop Actors Category for that matter, then why can't these guys? This wiki is a reflection of the decades the Muppets have been around, and right now this is celebrity in America.
I cannot stand Paris Hilton, but she deserves a page here. I would be willing to sacrifice Molly Quinn and Jonathan Morgan Heit, but that's about it. Pages for Shanna Moakler and Anna Maria Perez de Taglé tie in nicely with other articles on the wiki. As much as I hate reality television, it is big, and so is The Hills with Stephanie Pratt.
- As a side note, before anyone makes any judgements, I ask that you check out the individual pages for some of the celebs too. Especially if we are going on grounds of interaction. When possible, I tried to use a different picture on their page, and saved the cuter and more interactive pictures there. Carmen Electra giving Red a kiss, Gilles Marini playing with her pig tails, Kellie Martin hugging her. -- Nate (talk) 16:45, December 14, 2009 (UTC)
- I pretty much agree with what Nate said. I think the main questions here are: 1) how do we draw the line bewteen "interacting with the Muppets" versus "just posing for a picture" and 2) what do we define as a "celebrity" (versus "just some person no one cares about").
- I would put the interaction on the same level as Tamara Tunie, Anne Heche, Michael Bolton, Ringo Starr, Cheryl Hines, Sammy Sosa, Harry Shearer, Fergie, Shoshanna Lonstein Gruss, Fred McGriff, Sammy Sosa and numerous other people who interacted with Muppets at live events.
- Now as for whether or not these individuals are noteworthy celebrities that people care about...I, personally, couldn't care less about some of these people (there are also celebrities on this wiki from other decades and specific niches of pop-culture that I feel the same way about) - but I do recognize most of these people as being famous people (even if I don't personally feel they deserve their fame or think that they are exceptionally talented or wonderful human-beings). They are celebrities (people who are famously recognized in a society or culture). -- Brad D. (talk) 17:46, December 14, 2009 (UTC)
- Celebrity is indeed also subjective. When I see David Rudman on the street in Chicago and get a little fan-boy-ish, my friends are like, "who is that?" One of my best friends could tell you everything about Fred McGriff and any other Baseball Player you can name, but I can barely tell you anything about any team other then the New York Yankees. I can't stand Lindsay Lohan, Anna Nicole, Paris Hilton, or shows like The Hills, but I have people I've known that fawned over them every waking minute. Even though they are charity events, serving as nothing more then a photo opt in hopes of grabbing some press coverage in a magazine, blog, or even a newspaper, this is what our society is made up of today, and even though it is a short interaction, I feel it still counts and makes for interesting content on the wiki. -- Nate (talk) 17:59, December 14, 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't mean to mislead. This isn't a question of whether or not they're celebrities. We include people on the wiki who are or aren't celebrities, but only based on whether or not they interacted with the Muppets. If Brad Pitt were there and all he did was stand next to Red for a photo, he wouldn't be covered here under our policy guidelines. Simply put, none of these people pass our guidelines as written out at Category talk:Celebrities and linked to from Muppet Wiki:Policies and Guidelines. —Scott (talk) 19:10, December 14, 2009 (UTC)
- Our policy on celebrities says: "Celebrities in an en masse appearance where a Muppet's in a corner somewhere but don't directly interact (so no to Paul McCartney because Kermit's hovering behind him in a couple shots, yes to Tom Jones for having Kermit on his shoulder, and he's already relevant anyway)"
- Molly Quinn appeared and had her picture taken with Red Fraggle hovering behind her in a couple shots (same with Debi Mazar but she's already relevant anyway). However Carmen Electra gave Red a kiss, Gilles Marini played with her pig tails, Kellie Martin hugged her, Stephanie Pratt got the crap scared out of her by the little Fraggle, and others were shown talking, hugging and interacting directly with the Muppet. Seems like they would be covered here under our policy. -- Brad D. (talk) 19:30, December 14, 2009 (UTC)
- The Guideline also says, "Talk show hosts and anyone who directly interacts (talks, performs a skit, brutally attacks) a Muppet character in a special, appearance, live event, commercial, etc.". I don't see how most of these wouldn't qualify then, since they talked, hugged, etc. Especially funny is Stephanie Pratt, who was startled by Red. I guess I just don't see the harm in having them here. To me it's not much different then a thirty second Pizza Hut commercial, both were done to push a product, this one was just done in a different medium (gossip magazines, blogs, and entertainment shows versus national television). I can agree to give up Molly Quinn and the kid who did the movie with Adam Sandler, but the rest deserve a page. -- Nate (talk) 19:36, December 14, 2009 (UTC)
- Yeah, details would help a lot. Looking at the assembled pictures on this page, Molly Quinn and Kevin Sorbo still fall into the McCartney camp if there's nothing beyond those images and would merit deletion. For Jonathan Morgan Heit, if it were up to me, if we have no other details and even given that we see Red closer to him in the image, I'd give him The Cast of Fame treatment, especially now that we have gallery note headers, since there's really not much to say about him beyond that picture, a few credits (mostly minor to date), and an IMDb link. But that's more to do with providing more info per click than anything else (since clicking that name I still felt fairly unenlightened and like those scant details could have been under the picture) and not something I'd make a huge deal out of. It's something I'd apply to, say, Chicago Cubs too, just add any details beyond that Bear appeared as notes or add Wikipedia links and make the names redirects. That example in fact matches our long established policies on bands (if the whole group appeared, they get one page and names as redirects; if a member also appeared solo or in another context they get a page, and if only one member appeared outside of the group context the band gets no page at all). -- Andrew Leal (talk) 21:39, December 14, 2009 (UTC)
- Kevin Sorbo actually gave Red rabbit ears, but all I can find are videos with a URL smacked across the screen. So that leaves Molly Quinn, who from the videos I've seen didn't really look comfortable with Red, but Red seemed to be mocking her pose at one point while the paparazzi snapped away. I'll start working the details of interaction in to their pages this afternoon. -- Nate (talk) 21:57, December 14, 2009 (UTC)
Pictures up. However, does anyone have any information as to who this was a benefit for? -- Nate (talk) 22:26, December 13, 2009 (UTC) I wanted to hold off on creating this page til I had more information, but since Warrick went ahead and created it, I put the celebrity arrival