Talk:Cross-dressing characters

Herry and Beautiful DayEdit

Are those characters really supposed to be the established Herry and Beautiful Day, or was it just early enough on that they were being used as ancillary puppets? —Scott (message me) 17:17, May 7, 2012 (UTC)

For Herry, it's ancillary (the fact that it's when the puppet still had a fur-covered nose helps to position it). For Beautiful Day, yes and no, since the character was really *always* ancillary (and "Beautiful Day Monster" the behind the scenes name), so names and roles in skits would always change (the main continuity being that the monster was always rather menacing in appearance, had the gruff voice, and usually wound up eating or destroying something). It's definitely meant to be taken as the same character in all of the listed skits, though. For Herry, we might change the label to "proto-Herry Monster" or something on those lines. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 17:56, May 7, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed that they're ancillary appearances. I left in one of the BDM appearances though, as it seems he's supposed to be male in the sketch, and then dons a female disguise. —Scott (message me) 18:11, May 7, 2012 (UTC)

That makes sense (as opposed to Lulu, where for the purposes of that skit he *is* female, or a female character briefly turning into the not-yet Herry puppet). -- Andrew Leal (talk) 19:16, May 7, 2012 (UTC)

Bob clip on YouTube?Edit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rus-lpjaGc

Is this clip silent for everybody? I've tried reloading it, but this is the only clip on the Muppet Wiki channel that I can't hear. -- Zanimum 18:36, July 5, 2010 (UTC)

I can hear everything just fine... which of course is crucial for Bob's almost dead-on impression of Prairie Dawn. Awesomeness! — Julian (talk) 19:19, July 5, 2010 (UTC)

Cool, I guess it might be the HTML 5 setting on YouTube, not agreeing with me opening 10 videos at once. Thanks! -- Zanimum 13:11, July 6, 2010 (UTC)

Whatnots and MonstersEdit

Does anyone else think that some of the ever-changing characters like Bruce Monster, Icky Gunk, Scudge, etc shouldn't be on this list? Back then, the monsters were made to be ambiguous, and probably didn't have a set gender to begin with. — Joe (talk) 19:49, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree; utility puppets in a wig aren't the same as Fozzie Bear impersonating Miss Piggy. This article was started by Shane, and as seen below, he had his own ideas of what counted as cross-dressing and could be beligerent over them; when revived the page was only moderately altered from its last state. Feel free to adjust accordingly. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 21:04, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Done and done. I also took out the "Gender Changes" part of the page, since it has more to do with Whatnots than cross-dressing. — Joe (talk) 18:39, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Re-formatEdit

Does anyone else think thus page would look better in a table format, a la Impersonations of Animals? - Oscarfan 16:55, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, definately. We've got enough pictures here to do it now. Filling in the missing ones shouldn't be too hard. —Scott (talk) 18:04, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

deleted?Edit

This was deleted over 13 months ago, but I didn't see the reason. It only came to my attention because Joe recently showed some interest in such a theoretical page. I think it's a fun idea. —Scott (talk) 15:12, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

The reason was Shane, back when he was obsessing over the page. When he wouldn't stop coming under new IPs, Danny retaliated by deleting the pages he created (this was before we really thought about just protecting pages). Looking at it again, it's a mess in some spots, but I agree it's a fun idea. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 15:14, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Mean MamaEdit

Mean Mama was introduced as a female, a mother, and in most of her appearances that tick out to me, such as The Muppets Go Hollywood or Episode 217, she's attired as female. So the question is, was there ever an occasion where the puppet was explicitly referred to, or coded through clothing, as male? It's alluded to in passing in the Mean Mama page, "in other appearances, as the hand puppet, the character would lose all the extras, and become more male in appearance and voice," but that strikes me as very vague. --Andrew, Aleal 23:47, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I think in the Carol Burnett episode that Strangepork refered to the monster as "him" when he said: "Why don't you try dancing with him? Dancing's the unviversal language." I could be wrong. I haven't that episode since 2004 or 2005. I don't remember really. And also, Mean Mama appears in The Muppet Show Book dressed in a blower derby as the pretty girl's date, so that gives proof Mean Mama is also male. -- Big V 00:15, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

In Episode 203, Mean Mama sings with a gruff male voice. Of course, it could be said that Mean Mama was a woman with a man's voice, but it isn't said that she's really a woman in that episode, and nothing in that episode implies that her male voice was meant as a joke. --Minor muppetz 14:05, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

DescriptionsEdit

Would it be useful to list not only the Muppets in drag, but where appropriate, what the drag character is? For example, Kermit as Ms. Mask the mud-wrestler in episode 202, Fozzie as "First Mate Piggy" in episode 216, etc.... -- Merrystar 01:03, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I tried to give descriptions for some of the Muppets in drag. I don't think Kermit was mud-wrestling when he dressed as Ms. Mask, I believe it was lady wrestling. Yeah, I think we should add descriptions for them, but only a few can be described. I think it would waste time trying to come up with various names for the Muppets in drag. -- Big V 01:12, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh no - I didn't mean come up with names for them! Just some sort of description as to why the character was in drag, or what the skit was at least like you already have for Bert & Telly. And mostly because I, at least, tend to remember skits rather than episode numbers! (sorry about the mud... it is indeed lady wrestling.). -- Merrystar 01:37, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I read your thing wrong. It's just the way you described Kermit and Fozzie

made me think evertone needed a name like that. -- Big V 11:34, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Miss KittyEdit

Isn't she, arguably, female in her normal state? --Peter Pantalones 20:59, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Miss Kitty is a male. His name is a twist. In westerns, there's usually a happy girl named Miss Kitty. The twist of his debut is that Miss Kitty is male and is a a mean monster. -- Big V 21:03, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Ernie Girl in Sex and ViolenceEdit

Would the Ernie Girl from Sex and Violence count as Ernie in drag? -- Big V 10:51, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely. -- Danny Toughpigs 15:44, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure. If they intended the character to be Ernie in drag they would've used the Ernie puppet instead of a generic Whatnot with similar features. And she's a different color. I vote no. -- MuppetDude 15:58, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't she do an Ernie laugh? -- Danny Toughpigs 16:00, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but I think the joke is supposed to be that Bert would fall for a girl that looked/acted like Ernie, not that Ernie dressed up like a girl. I'm almost positive it isn't the Ernie puppet. --Peter Pantalones 16:06, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, that raises a question I've had since this page began. I think it might be useful to make more of a distinction on the page, via two seperate sections, between Muppet "characters" in drag and Muppet puppets recycled or refurbished as female characters (especially since currently, the front text, which could use some cleanup, emphasizes the latter). Featherstone wasn't in drag playing The Queen, but rather, the puppet was refurbished as a female (and with a female performer even, for one appearance). It's been ages since I've sene the Two-Headed Monster mother sketch, but was it supposed to be Telly in drag or an altered version of the Telly puppet? Plus, then it would be easier to work in things like the recycling of Mudwell the Mudbunny (the puppet, but clearly not the character) as Murray the Minstrel's wife in The Muppet Christmas Carol, or reversals the other way, like Taminella Grinderfall's puppet becoming Tommy. Unless you think I'm overthinking this, but even within the productions themselves, I think there's a differenmce between suddenly showing Kermit or Wilkins and Wontkins in wigs and dresses (even if they are coded as purely female in those sketches) and Featherstone being redone as the Queen. For that matter, any objection to renaming this "Characters in Drag"? As off the top of my head, I can think of several Dinosaurs characters who wore drag (and Baby Sinclair's classic line, "She's too controlling. I want to wear a dress!") --Andrew, Aleal 16:08, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll say the purose of the page "If a male Muppet has girsl clothing on, it makes them dressed in drag". I know they're ment to be a different character when they do dress in drag, but they're still the same Muppet. I should change it to "Characters in Drag", if there are enough other characters who were in drag -- Big V 20:50, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Right, but The Queen isn't Featherstone in drag. It's based on the same puppet, but it's a completely different character. To be drag, it would have to acknowledge some of the qualities of the underlying character. Kermit as Ms. Mask is drag. --Peter Pantalones 20:55, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I if I understand you correctly, all the Muppets except for Kermit as Ms. Mask aren't in drag, they're just different characters. -- Big V 21:01, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, you also have to take the camp factor into consideration. I still don't think the Queen belongs in this category, though. Nor do I believe Fozzie does for his mom's appearance in The Muppet Show. --Peter Pantalones 21:06, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I believe Fozzie should remain here. He's just like Kermit dressing up like Ms. Mask. -- Big V 21:08, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Peter and I definitely aren't saying that everyone but Kermit should be removed. The Queen and Featherstone are completely different, not Featherstone in drag. The Queen is refubrished, has become a full body puppet, and in her second appearance, is voiced by Richenda Carey. The Featherstone puppet was otherwise used only once on The Muppet Show, after the Queen debuted, and I'm not even sure he was named, so in that context, the point was not that it was Featherstone in drag, but a completely different character retooled from the same puppet. Similarly, Taminella and Tommy are different characters, not Taminella in a suit, and I'd argue that the Two-Headed Monster's mother is *not* meant to be Telly in a dress. In all the others, though, Fozzie is explicitly in drag as Miss Piggy, Gloat suddenly shows up in a dress, and so forth. If an established character shows up in a wig or dress as female atmosphere, that's drag. If the character sddenly switches gender, has a different performer, a new female name, and is generally treated as completely female, and not as a joke, then it's not drag. See Hillary the Owl becoming Timmy in another episode. That's not drag, that's recycling. Basically, Featherstone and, unless you can prove it to me, Two-Headed Monster's mother are my big bones of contention in the current list, though I think it's useful to keep the distinction in mind in the future. You wouldn't count Emily Bear or Grover's Mommy as Grover and Fozzie in drag, even if they're just spare puppets with wigs and stuff added, would you? And Peter, Shane didn't specify, but I presume he's counting Fozzie because in that same episode, he impersonates Miss Piggy, not because his mother shows up. --Andrew, Aleal 21:10, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh right. The Pigs in Space bit. I thought you were talking about using an old Fozzie puppet to play Emily Bear in her first appearance. Yeah, that totally counts. Let's just be more specific on the article about that. --Peter Pantalones 21:13, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Now I'm confused. Let my try to contain a summary. If a male Muppet changes like Featherstone did, than that's not drag, but all the other are, except Telly. I remeber seeing the Two Headededed Monster sketch and I remember it was the Telly puppet with a blonde wig and blue-green dress. Also, I can't believe this is happening. I asked ONE simple question and then it turns into a disscussion about weather or not some Muppets are in drag or not. -- Big V 21:18, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

We discuss things a lot here. That's the nature of the Wiki, and the fun of it. Don't take debates or discussions as a personal attack on the integrity of the work, because, apart from the occasional "is there a point?" sort of query, they're not. But again, remember this is a community project, and everyone has a right to discuss the shape a list or category should take. Featherstone had last been seen in 1971. On the Muppet show, the puppet was completely redone, not just in wig and dress, as The Queen. New name, new voice, new role. A male Featherstone never appeared on the series until the fourth season. It's the same as Taminella Grinderfall and Tommy. Same puppet, *consistent* seperate identities. I'll give you Telly if you insist, but it seems more like the puppet being recycled (and may have been before he became a main character) rather than Telly dressing up as Mom. --Andrew, Aleal 21:24, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Try not to get too frustrated. Some questions are more complicated than others and need more discussion. For example, would Astoria be considered Statler in drag? I'd say no, even though the joke is obviously that Astoria looks just like Statler, because it isn't Statler showing up in a wig and a dress. It's Astoria. It makes sense, on the other hand, that Gloat put on a wig because Boppity needed a "female" dancing partner in that one At the Dance sketch. I personally haven't seen the Telly sketch, so I can't comment. --Peter Pantalones 21:27, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

It also makes sense that Gloat was able to impersonate a famale's vioce for that sketch. I'm catching on now. So should we remove Featherstone from the list? -- Big V 21:33, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Either remove him or make a seperate section. Like I said, I'm not necessarily arguing for removal, but maybe a sub-heading, "Puppet Gender Changes" or something, for characters where the gender change is a calculated refurbishment, not just putting a male in drag for laughs (especially as there's a ton of those that have yet to be added!) Featherstone in this case is about the same as if an Anything Muppet or Whatnot was used for a female in one episode, and then a male in another. Even if the same pattern or puppet is used, Mr. Johnson and Grandma Happy aren't the same. That's the main reason I've quibbled, really, because to say a puppet is a character in drag implies an equivocation, whereas Baskerville, Gloat and the rest, who are otherwise consistent individual puppets, in wigs or dresses is a drag gag. --Andrew, Aleal 21:38, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I see what you're saying. Add a sub-category to the list for Gender Changes. Great Idea! Could you add the other "ton" of Muppets in drag if you know them? -- Big V 21:46, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Mayhaps not a ton, but see Image:Bertmama.jpg and Image:Mauricedress.jpg, to say nothing of Image:Sprocketpoodle.jpg. (Since in the Muppet world, poodles are almost always gender coded as female.) --Andrew, Aleal 22:00, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Should we add them and the pictures to the page and since there won't be enough room to fit them all, should we make them into a gallery? -- Big V 22:04, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Check out the gallery I made of a lot of Muppets in drag. And there's still more. -- Big V 23:07, 21 April 2006 (UTC)