As far as I can see, Carol Binion doesn't have any Muppet/Henson credits. Should she be on the wiki? -- Danny (talk) 14:19, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I guess this sort of relates to your current events query about outreaches, and what direction we want the Wiki to go. The current category description for puppeteers is Puppeteers who have worked on Non-Muppet Productions, and have never worked with the Muppets, so it's not a shock to find such people in there. Though only Binion, Godwin, and Aymee Garcia] are utterly without Henson connections. Shari Lewis, Marc Weiner, and Richard Bradshaw all guest starred with their puppets on Henson shows, and though Burr Tillstrom is less direct, he was the Henson's landlord early on, and besides, I like that picture. The others, though, I guess it depends on whether we want to encourage expansion of the Non-Muppet stuff, or as Scott said awhile back, save it for a general Puppetry wiki (which does not exist at the present time). -- Andrew Leal (talk) 02:24, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't realize that she was in that category; I thought she was in Muppet Puppeteers or something. I didn't even remember we had that category. I dunno. My opinion would be that the wiki is just for things with some kind of Henson/Muppet connection. I could be persuaded otherwise. -- Danny (talk) 02:42, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I tend to agree with you, actually, especially since for me anyway, half the fun is finding that Henson/Muppet connection, however slight. After finals, I so need to reward myself by creating that Stan Freberg page, especially as I found a trippy blog post by Freberg's son about his dad taking him to meet Jim Henson at an Emmy event in the early 70s or something, and apparently Jim "smelled like powdered donuts." But if that is what we decide, then the category text needs to be fixed. -- 02:45, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I was just saying to myself, well, who made this stupid category in the first place? I just looked at the history, and: Oh, I did.

Well, that was then and this is now. Do you think I should delete it? -- Danny (talk) 02:56, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

She does indeed have Henson credits, at least as a Designer, she was a costumer for many muppet productions while i was thier , working on Sesame Street, Bear in the Big Blue House, Muppets from space, ect.ect., i do not have afull credit list infront of me, but she did indeeed work thier, she is also a accomplished puppeteer,and puppet builder,

Keep in mind, credit lists for shows do not always included evryone who has worked on a production(for exapmle i was omitted from the VMMC movie on NBC even though i did work on it, hope that helps -- james Wojtaljr 11:55, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I think collecting pages on "Puppeteers who have worked on Non-Muppet Productions, and have never worked with the Muppets" isn't relevant to this wiki – which is a Muppet Wiki. This place is for things that connect and relate to the Muppets and Henson. If a page references or lists a person who hasn't worked with the Muppets, well then we should just link to wikipedia or another site. We shouldn't create pages for articles unrelated to the focus of Muppet Wiki – that would be the job of a Puppetry wiki.

I think a "Celebrity Puppeteer" type category, for all non-Henson puppeteer acts that have a Muppet connection (such as Edgar Bergen, Richard Bradshaw, Shari Lewis, or Marc Weiner). But with someone like Carol Binion or James Godwin however, if they have no Muppet connection thye shouldn't have pages here (just reference to them through external links). But if they have a direct Muppet connection they should go in the Muppet Puppeteers/Performers/Designers or any of the other Muppet people categories.

Even the Non-Muppet Productions I question being here, as the only real connection is they have puppets and a few performers/producers have worked with the Muppets. Do we need a page for Allegra's Window or could we just link to wikipedia (or an external site, or puppetry wiki) on Kathryn Mullen and Martin P. Robinson's pages instead? Many are third degree connections - the show features someone who is featured in the Muppets (are we looking for a Muppet/Henson connection or a performer/producer connection?). Should we create a page for "Nickelodeon's Doug"? It shared production values with Muppet Babies (as it was animated and shown on Nick) and had the vocal talent of Fran Brill (and some other Henson-connected voice artists). We don't have a page for "Into the Night" even though Jim Henson himself appeared in the film. And all of Frank Oz's directorial credits aren't in here either. I think if there is no Muppet connection, we should leave it for another wiki (either Wikipedia, a yet-to-be-formed Pupperty wiki, or something else). I think we need to keep this wiki focused on Muppet/Henson and not slip into an a general puppetry wiki. That's just my thoughts on the subject. -- Brad D. (talk) 17:02, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

again,(i now i put it up thier , (but these talk pages confuse me a bit in thier format), she is a Henson alumis, maybe not a s a puppeteer , but as a designer for sure, so it makes sense to list here other credits in a non related way on a desiger page since she was doing costuming, and wrangling for henson shows, --Wojtaljr 21:52, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I've changed Carol's category and added the info (a Google search also confirms she was credited on Sesame Street). The issue now is just what to do with the Puppeteers category in general. I like Brad's suggestion. I wasn't sure Richard Bradshaw would fit in celebrities, as he's not really famous outside of puppetry, but "Celebrity Puppeteer" is perfect, and could also encompass any of the Jim Henson Presents puppeteers. As for Godwin and Garcia, unless we can dig up any Henson credits soon, I'd suggest deleting them until we have a direct Muppet connection for them. Dumping non-Muppet productions makes sense to me too, though I do sort of wish we didn't have to keep saying "this belongs on a puppetry wiki" when there is none, and even then, it would be a tricky task to try not to overlap too much with all the Muppet stuff we've got right here. But of the 18 non Muppet titles, Electric Company and Between the Lions count as appearances, Pee-Wee's Playhouse as a reference (the puppets appeared on Sesame Street and it was spoofed on Muppet Babies), and Avenue Q and Pigeon Holed incorporate satirical elements aimed at aspects of Sesame Street. The rest, I'd tend to agree with dumping it if that's what we decide. Again, the question is really what we want Muppet Wiki to become as it expands and how inclusive it should be. Andrew Leal (talk) 22:10, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I think Non-Muppet Productions works, as long as the focus is on the connections between people who have worked on Muppet/Henson projects. I think it's helpful for a Muppet Wiki reader to click on It's a Big Big World, and then see all the M/H related people who have worked on that show. I just want to draw the line at having pages for people who don't (as far as we know) have any M/H connection at all, so I'm deleting Garcia and Godwin.

I don't think we need "Celebrity Puppeteers". Shari Lewis and Marc Weiner are Celebrities, Richard Bradshaw was a TMS guest star. The only tough one is Burr Tillstrom, and I think we could put him in References. Henson cited him as an influence in a bunch of different places; all we need is a good quote, and he can be a Reference. -- Danny (talk) 21:45, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, we may have something better than a quote, though it got lost in a hasty redirect from the Television Hall of Fame. From an anonymous user, "In 1986 Jim Henson inducted Burr Tillstrom into the Television Hall of Fame. The Muppets along with Lamb Chops, Howdy Doody, and Charlemane the lion with their respective puppeteers were feated in a video saluting Tillstrom." If anyone has a chance to check on that and get more details, that would be useful. Andrew Leal (talk) 21:49, 16 May 2006 (UTC)