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How necessary is this page? Through The Years are really only meant for main characters, and the puppet didn't go through any huge changes. He wasn't even an official character with a solid performer. God, people are going insane over Frackles anymore. Scooter 00:13, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

While I'm no Frackle fanatic, and I agree it's a bit of an oddity (and one I wouldn't have created myself), at least there's actual images and text, as compared to the awful "Betty Lou Through the Years" which lingered for a good while. Mahna Mahna isn't a main character either, though there I think the overall design changes and especially the odd parallel development on Sesame Street under a different name and his general longevity as a minor but memorable character with a distinct personality and schtick justify it. Boppity is none of that, true, but no real harm is being done, unless we get a George the Janitor Through the Years page or something. In general, there seems to be some growing concerns over how to handle the character evolution pages and what belongs or doesn't. What started out as a fun and really interesting project is leading to little quarrels over what changes are important or how many pictures are too many. If this keep's happening, maybe this should be discussed on current events, and some general guidelines to approaching the category laid down. --Andrew, Aleal 00:25, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
How about Beautiful Day Monster Through the Years, Gloat Over the Years, Floyd Pepper Over the Years, Janice Over the Years, Sam the Eagle Over the Years, Zoot Over the Years, Dr. Julius Strangepork Over the Years, Snake Frackle Over the Years, Herry Monster Over the Years, Guy Smiley Over the Years, Gladys the Cow Over the Years, Elmo Over the Years, Telly Monster Over the Years, Gorgon Heap Over the Years, Sweetums Over the Years, or Timmy Monster Over the Years? --Dean, Deanmo19 00:25, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Ack! Too many redlinks. And Dean, please tell me you're kidding about Snake Frackle Through the Years. --Andrew, Aleal 00:40, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
In The Muppet Show's Season 5, Snake Frackle was remade. --Dean, Deanmo19 00:25, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Maybe, but is there really more than two images that could be used for that page? Maybe Scooter has a point. Though if you have enough text and background to support a page, I guess it could be done. But what would be the purpose, really? It's not as if Snake Frackle is still around and still going through periodic changes, like Miss Piggy. --Andrew, Aleal 00:46, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I thought that the rebuilt Snake Frackle was a completely different character, called dark green Hunchback Frackle. Anyway, I think that Beautiful Day Monster, Sam the Eagle, Floyd Pepper, Janice, Zoot, Elmo, Telly Monster, Herry Monster, and maybe Timmy Monster and Guy Smiley could use "through the years" pages. --Minor muppetz 01:06, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I think if you have pictures and text for it, then I'm okay with any Through the Years page that anybody wants to make. That Betty Lou page was bad because it only had one poser picture, and hardly any text. I think this Boppity page is pretty nice. There's nice pictures, which show off the redesigned puppets. I think Shane and Dean did a really good job on the page. If they want to do this kind of work for Sam the Eagle or Herry Monster, I'd like to see it.
Every time I think, no, that's too much, the wiki proves me wrong. It's big enough to handle all of our weird enthusiasms. -- Danny Toughpigs 20:17, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

I was actually thinking about making this same page, So Im glad that they did it. And aslong as there is enough information and images to show the differences, then i think it is a good idea! --Warrick 09:17, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Why thank you Danny. If anyone wants to help, I'm going to make a Timmy Monster Trhough the Years, thou I only have 1 picture of him. It's from the opening theme in Sesason 2. So it anybody has a picture of his other forms, could you please upload it?--Big V 10:49, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
And also, why have Fraggles Rock charaters there, they've bearly changed at all? Ma Gorg has only had one change and so has Gobo, all the rest were either refurbished or the same puppet was used.--Big V 11:29, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Gobo and Ma Gorg are the only ones with pages, though. The changes are discussed in detail (and actually, if I ever got around to it, there's been a few changes to Sprocket, especially a major shift between the first filmed episode, and later appearances). Like Danny said, if there's pictures and images to support it, why complain? Also, hopefully someone will help (I'm sure someone has season 1 on DVD), but in general, it's probably a good idea to wait to start an evolution page until you have at least two pictures. But apart from that, I'm sort of tired of these little quibbles over what should go in and what shouldn't. If someone wants to make it and it looks nice, why complain? There's room for Gobo, Boppity, Miss Piggy, and maybe even (if anyone even has multiple images of him) Snake Frackle, who knows? -- Andrew, Aleal 12:57, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, the one thing I'd ask for is that you wait until you have more than one picture. Just having one makes it a crummy page. -- Danny Toughpigs 14:35, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I kind of feel like we should think about making three pictures/changes the minimum. I mean, the two pictures on the Gobo Fraggle Through the Years page are the same exact pictures as on the Gobo page. Why not explain the one big change in puppet design on the Gobo page instead of having a separate page for it? --Peter Pantalones 14:41, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
That makes sense to me. -- Danny Toughpigs 14:43, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm. I think the repetition is the bigger issue. I hadn't realize the exact same Gobo pics were on the regular page, so yeah, if the comparison images are already all in one place, that renders it a bit pointless (though there was talk of a UK Gobo variant, which if found could be useful, and I have two early concept designs by Frith which are interesting, and might be enough to save the page. Hmmmm.) But Ma Gorg Through the Years has an image not on the main page, and which I think is more useful than just a text explanation (I suppose one could add it to Ma's page, which is otherwise too short just yet to support too many pictures, via gallery, but that would look odd to me). --Andrew, Aleal 14:48, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't think it's the repetition of pictures as much as whether there's enough of a change to support a "Through the Years" page. Shane is right -- Gobo and Ma Gorg only changed once. It's not really a "Through the Years" situation. Even Blue Frackle changed more often than Ma Gorg did. I think having two pictures on Ma Gorg's page is fine, if it illustrates a point. -- Danny Toughpigs 14:52, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

If anyone's interested, I'm going to start a Sam the Eagle Through the Years now. Pictures will be wanted because I'm no picture store.--Big V 22:28, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Shane if you don't have very many pictures, would you mind holding off on that page? I've been gathering some images, as well as an early design sketch, just haven't gotten around to creating it yet. Statler and Waldorf Through the Years, even working with Dean and Brad and others, was work enough. --Andrew, Aleal 22:44, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
You're right. I should hold down on it for a little. But what else can I do? Make a Guy Smilet Type Anything Muppet Through the Years? Like that'll happen. I'll just finish the Muppet Explosions page so it might go on the Main Page for Today on Muppet Wiki. Big V 23:31, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, there's a lot to be done, but it's not always easy to find things, yeah (the Things you can do page is practically obsolete now). I've been thinking about that. In the mean time, here's two more explosion images to use on the page (here's a general tip, by the way; when you do upload a new picture, try to resize it to at least 300px if you can, as smaller images or thumbnails are of more limited use): Explosiontommy.jpg from a Tommy and Fred commercial and Luncheonexplosion.jpg, what's left of Luncheon Counter Monster in episode 210. Hope this helps! --Andrew, 23:49, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Thank you Andrew! Hey, that rhymed. I e-mailed Danny a picture of Wilkins blowing up Wontkins so he could upload it because it would work for me. If he does, I'll replace the current one with it. Those pictures will help the page a lot! Big V 23:57, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Design Drawing

If anyone has a copy of Jim Henson's Designs and Doodles, could they try to upload the sketch of him? -- Big V 11:33, 17 April 2006 (UTC)