User:MuppetArchives/Current Events 13 (Sept-Oct 2006)

Archive of Current events discussions.

TV Guide Content

I got some TV Guides a while back and they have some Bear in the Big Blue House / Sesame Street / Muppet content. I was wondering which, if any of the following are okay to post --- scans of actual articles, descriptions of actual articles, scans of ads for programs, descriptions of ads for programs. George B. (talk) 23:55, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, that's a good question. Personally, I think it would be very useful for us to create an archive of old newspaper and magazine articles, either as scans or retyping them. It would be of general archival interest, as well as raw material for other articles, along the lines of the Transcripts.

But the copyright/plagiarism issue is tricky -- we'd be copying the entirety of somebody else's work into the wiki. It's a lot like song lyrics in that way. What do people think? -- Danny (talk) 12:50, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

For myself anyway, I'm not entirely comfortable with quoting the *entirety* of long pieces (as opposed to TV Guide listings or brief ad copy, say), and the same would apply to scans, but significant passages to serve a specific purpose would be useful. I've been playing around with this in the reviews sections on movie and special pages, most recently adding to Dreamchild and The Muppet Christmas Carol. I'm still experimenting a bit there, but one thing I try to do is limit the text to the passages most relevant to the Muppets/Henson and which serve the purpose of giving a general idea of the tone of the criticism (which one-line out of context-excerpts doesn't do), as well as the sometimes intriguing or just odd leaps of comparison reviewers leap to. The lengths of these are varying, and I wonder if I'm skirting the same line myself, but I've intentionally limited myself to no more than two paragraphs copied from the source at the very least, and usually, it's more like one full paragraph and the most pertinent half of another. Thus, there's both a clearly stated justification for including the text, and no question of using it in its entirety. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 15:17, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Andrew. -- Peter (talk) 16:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree --- it probably might not be a good idea to necessarily post an entire articles or scans of articles, but summaries might be a good idea. What about ads? Think it might be okay to post actual scans of those? I found a really good ad for Bear in the Big Blue House from right around the time when it first premiered. George B. (talk) 18:59, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Hrm --- well, if nobody says otherwise, I'm going to go ahead based on the idea that it's okay to post the ad(s) and get that uploaded and posted. George B. (talk) 03:31, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, ads are defintely okay. Fair use law essentially allows educational reproduction of copyrighten content, so long as it doesn't infringe on potential sales of the work. As ads aren't what is sold, they're A-OK. -- Zanimum 00:28, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Videographies

What do you guys think about changing the videography format a little bit? There's some duplication on concurrent releases (when the VHS and DVD were released at the same time), so I've created an example of merging these releases and adding a column for Format (See: The Muppet Movie Videography (sandbox) vs. The Muppet Movie (video)). This allows us to go completely chronologically instead of separating by format (having a separate category for Beta seems silly, to me at least). I personally also prefer reverse chronologies, so that's what my sandbox example shows, but I'm flexible on that. -- Peter (talk) 15:49, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree. It looks potentially less messy that way. — Scott (talk) 15:53, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Assuming the covers are the same for the ones that get combined I guess it'd be alright. --Cantus Rock 21:11, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

For most of these, we don't (and probably never will) have things like the Beta covers. Conversely, in most scenarios, the cover art is practically identical, maybe with a slightly different border. So, I don't think it's really a problem. -- Peter (talk) 22:00, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Why would the Beta covers be hard to obtain? I couldn't find any on eBay right now but I think I've seen like Laserdisc releases at thrift stores (kicking myself now for not purchasing). I'm sure there are copies out there. Its just the difference in cover that is my issue, because even if the differences are small, both pictures should be included here. It'd be excluding information if they weren't. --Cantus Rock 07:04, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Fozzie: 1965?

Maybe Scott or Danny or someone who has visited the archives knows better than me, but the first Fozzie was auctioned at Sotheby's, but it has a 1965 ha! tag. Was he used for commercials or anything? It may have been a random bear puppet that was dressed for The Muppet Show. I found these images at Getty. -- User:Scooter 15:38, October 8, 2006

The "ha!" tag can't be from the 60s -- they were Muppets, Inc. until 1974. Do they usually write the date that a puppet was first built on a tag? "1965" might mean something else -- maybe the number of the box it was stored in? -- Danny (talk) 15:55, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

No, most Muppets are tagged with their date of completion. Unless the tag was added later, I'm stumped. Scooter 16:23, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

The only records the Sotheby site has, that include the word "Muppet", are as follows... no auction in their records references Jim Henson or HA! (Note that the password only site goes back from 1998 to 2007. -- Zanimum 00:46, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Johnny Cash

SESSION 5 | 16 Sep 04 10:00 AM.

LOT 521

GROUP OF CORRESPONDENCE REGARDING JOHNNY CASH'S 1992 APPEARANCE ON "SESAME STREET

500—700 USD Lot Sold. Hammer Price with Buyer's Premium: 3,300 USD

MEASUREMENTS

letters approximately 11 in. by 8 1/2 in., photograph 9 1/4 in. by 6 1/2 in.

DESCRIPTION

Including an original signed letter by Johnny Cash regarding the parameters of his appearance as Ronnie Trash; an eight-page typewritten script; several letters and sheet music for "A Tall Tale" and "Ring of Fire"; a handwritten letter by Johnny Cash in pencil on Johnny Cash stationery responding that he would love to appear on the program, and that his alter-ego, muppet Ronnie Trash, could sing his song "Don't Go Near the Water"; a carbon copy of the contract; together with a color photograph of Johnny and Big Bird, matted and framed. 42 pages

Miss Piggy Shoes

Planet Hollywood, Selections from the Vault

SALE N07818

SESSION 2 | 14 Dec 02 2:00 PM.

LOT 264

MISS PIGGY SHOES FROM "THE MUPPET SHOW",

1,500—2,000 USD Lot Sold. Hammer Price with Buyer's Premium: 1,912 USD

MEASUREMENTS

N/A

DESCRIPTION

1976-1980, grey ultra suede open hooved pumps lined in purple satin with purple piping at the edges and inner soles designed with pink hearts and the letter `P'. (2)

Provenance: Sold Christie's, June 19, 1993, Lot 50.

Should this promo get a page?

I know that, regarding promos, we usually only give pages for promos that feature original Muppet content produced especially for the promos (not counting images of video or album covers, or stuff like that). And normally they are only acknowledged if the new Muppet content is visual, not audio. However, I recall a commercial for the 1993 video releases of The Muppet Movie and The Great Muppet Caper which didn't have any new footage, but the audio featured Fozzie Bear singing a jingle similar to The Muppet Show Theme, promoting the videos. Should this be included here? I haven't seen it in years, and couldn't transcribe it if a transcript was needed (and his dialogue was mostly sung, so we probably wouldn't be able to post lyrics anyway). --Minor muppetz 14:47, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Who?

Anybody know who this is? I feel like I may have seen him before, but I'm blanking on a name. -- User:Scooter 16:31, October 6, 2006

It's Robert Shields, of Shields and Yarnell. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 21:34, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Museum of Broadcast Communications Archives

I just discovered this cool resource - the Museum of Broadcast Communications Archives. They have full episode videos of several Muppet/Henson things online to watch for free. Including The Muppet Show episode 411, Muppet Babies episode 305, the first episode of Sesame Street (and Episode 2615), episodes of Saturday Night Live with the Muppets, a full episode of The Jimmy Dean Show with Rowlf, Kermit and Piggy hosting Great Performances, Big Bird on The Flip Wilson Show and more. Just search the archives for a program (or just do "Jim Henson" or "Muppets"), find the show's page and (if a digital file is available) play the proxy located in the right-hand column. I don't know if we can get screen-grabs from the video files (they are streaming Windows-Media files. I couldn't get it to work, but someone more tech-savvy might). It's worth checking out just to get get exposed to, and enjoy, some of these episodes and shows if you haven't seen them (or even if you have). The Jimmy Dean Show episode is pretty cool. Check it out. -- Brad D. (talk) 04:26, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

The Muppet Show Promos

I was just wondering. Do we have a page for The Muppet Show promos, suhc as the ones seen on The Muppet Show: Season One DVD set? I've been seacrhing and couldn't find any. Since each episode had a promo with new footage, there should be a guide of some sort. We can start out with the ones available on DVD, and then more can be added based on fan memories, whether any of the promos are available at The Museum of Television and Radio, and whether anybody here actually has copies of promos tapped from TV (I know that there are fans who have copies of episodes of The Muppet Show with the original ITV logo, so it is possible for people here to have video copies of the promos). --Minor muppetz 19:19, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the only source that we have for those are the ones that are being released on DVD. Fan memories aren't a good enough source for us -- everybody's memories are different. I know that the episodes at the Museum of TV & Radio don't have promos. -- Danny (talk) 20:10, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

While that would be a great list if we had a reliable resource, as Danny said, we can't rely on fan memories. Only actual evidence. — Scott (talk) 20:13, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I know that some of the promos were shown at the Jim Henson Film Festival from 2004. I don't know if memories of these are good enough (a basic description could be written, without mentioning any lines from the promos). Or perhaps a page could be written with a description on what these were, and a list of the known promos. I think I've heard that a promo was once shown on You Tube (I've also heard that You Tube has also taken down clips). --Minor muppetz 20:52, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Main Page Calendar

Back when we redesigned the main page the "Today on Muppet Wiki" entries took up 3 lines and we had a very tall main page picture. Since that time the page has changed. The "Today on Muppet Wiki" entries fill up to 10-15 lines and our pictures aren’t as tall and narrow. This leaves the two columns more "unbalanced" and results in white-space under the image. I don't think we need to fill every inch of the main page and pack tons of information into it. Sometimes white space is good and eye pleasing. But this space always just seemed "wasted" to me.

I was surfing around some other Wikis this week, and saw something that caught my eye as a cool feature and I thought it might work on our main page to highlight some upcoming things in the Henson/Muppet world.

I know many people are now using Muppet Wiki as their "news source" on upcoming projects and productions and thought why not bring some of the upcoming things to the foreground. I slapped together a 3-month calendar (and at the end of September, December would be added and September taken off). Thoughts? -- Brad D. (talk) 02:49, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I reverted the Main Page but moved Brad's version to the Sandbox. Check it out there. -- Peter (talk) 03:28, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not a bad idea. I was thinking of rotating a second picture in that space, but this might be better. I'd like to hear what others think. — Scott (talk) 05:12, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Oooh! I like it very, very much. I think that might actually push Muppet Wiki to a whole new level. This should be a news source -- as a wiki, it ends up being updated much more easily and quickly than any of the other websites. (Especially mine!) I love it. -- Danny (talk) 08:58, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

There are 100 things I like about it. First and foremost, it'll keep people coming to the Wiki on a regular basis. — Joe (talk) 13:56, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Love it. A readily accessable news portal/calendar, and something to fill the space = wins all around. --Cantus Rock 13:14, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I definitely like it. I can't think of any reason for it not to be there and it will definitely be a good place for news. George B. (talk) 02:30, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Home Video Releases

See: The Muppet Movie (video), The Great Muppet Caper (video) and The Dark Crystal (video)

I played around with a new approach for us to handle numerous home releases of the same feature. Rather than individual pages for each and every different product, why not create one indepth resource? I think the pros of a combined page is (1) the comparability of the different releases is nice (2) a single page is convenient to browse for a specific release and (3) it’s a lot neater than 20 nearly identical stubby pages (just with different dates/distributor/cover). I'm willing to set this up for the other feature films if we like this approach. But I'd like to hear thoughts from others on how to document the many releases and re-releases of the same feature. I don't see the point in eventually having 10 different entries to capture the different releases of The Muppet Christmas Carol. Thoughts? -- Brad D. (talk) 03:35, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Looks good to me. My only comment would be that this should be limited to the features, and possibly specials, and not applied to television series. In these cases, there's a single work, the only variables being packaging and extras, whereas with the shows, there's compilations, edits, ordering, season sets, and in general, a longer page is more effective in tracking those changes/differences. Also, I'd noticed an earlier edit included a blank slot for international releases; if/when we do add that info, I'd recommend keeping such a list seperate, just because of the way we're handling the international merchandise in general -- Andrew Leal (talk) 05:30, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree. TV show releases are a diffrent thing (unless, like with some Bear in the Big Blue House and Sesame Street release, they are an exact re-release of an existing home video). "Potty Time with Bear" and "A Bear for All Seasons" have a diffrent "main feature", whereas all the diffrent rereleases of The Muppet Movie don't.

And I removed the international heading because I too thought that should be a seperate page when the time comes(same general set-up though). -- Brad D. (talk) 05:43, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea. I'd already started something along those lines a while back with The Dark Crystal (video).

However, I think the article titles should be consistent with other similar variations of the titles, such as The Muppet Movie (soundtrack) and The Muppet Show (album). So, I'd say we should move these new pages to The Muppet Movie (video) to be consistent. — Scott (talk) 14:35, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't have anything to add, except to say that this is a great idea. Kudos to Brad. -- Danny (talk) 15:53, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I think Scott's suggestion to rename the pages to fit form is a good one. Should we go with "(home video)" as the disambig (and we could have "(international home video)" someday)? -- Brad D. (talk) 16:34, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

That works for me. — Scott (talk) 16:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that's cool. -- Danny (talk) 16:59, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I did the major films: The Muppet Movie (video), The Great Muppet Caper (video), The Muppets Take Manhattan (video), The Muppet Christmas Carol (video), Muppet Treasure Island (video), Muppets From Space (video), The Dark Crystal (video) and Labyrinth (video). There are some missing covers (mainly VHS/Beta/Laserdisc) so if you can add any of them please go ahead. Also if I misses a re-release please add it in. I may set up some more of these later for other multiple released home video features & films, but I think this is a good starting point. Also if someone wants to add a link to these pages in the "See Also" of each film's main page I think that may be nice. Also do we want to "clean up" the now redundant multiple "DVD" pages and whatnot? Just some thoughts...I'm going to take a quick wiki break now. -- Brad D. (talk) 17:19, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I really like what is being done here, and I like the new pages for the video releases of the specials. I hope that pages for the video releases of Follow That Bird and The Adventures of Elmo in Grouchland get included soon (though Elmo in Grouchland has only had one video release). I really hope that somebody could add images of the Tales from Muppetland laserdisc releases that combined two specials each. I'd really like to see what those covers looked like. --Minor muppetz 22:58, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

sketch style

Regarding our Muppet Wiki:Style Guide, concerning italics and quotes for titles and whatnot... how should we present sketch titles? Neither italics nor quotes feels right. In TMS episode 412 when the pig says he thought they were doing "Pigalien," he's obviously referring to it as an episode title. Within the confines of Pigs in Space, they think of it as a TV show, which would indicate italics for Pigs in Space and "Strangepork Takes Up Disco" as the name of the episode in quotes. On the other hand, placing Pigs in Space on the same hierarchical level as The Muppet Show doesn't seem right either.

My initial feel was just to cite the sketch without italics or quotes, but I thought I'd bring it up here for further thoughts. Whatever we decide on, we're not beig consistant with it in ou pages now, and should figure that out for future reference.

Another prominent example is, how do we refer to the "Animals" episode of Elmo's World? Is that format combination correct? EW is a segment of Sesame Street (even though I do understand that episodes have been packaged together as a stand-alone series in some markets).

Thoughts? — Scott (talk) 01:04, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

After looking some more at some examples, I'm siding more and more with the no italics/no quotes idea. Maybe I've begun to hold less stock in titles that are at least properly capitalized, and should accept them for what they are. That said, we should be consistant in whatever we decide. Even today I've seen variations of styles being used and it would be nice if everything was all the same. — Scott (talk) 04:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, this has occurred to me too. With the Pigs in Space example, forgetting formatting alltogether works. But with Elmo's World, something needs to be used, I think. I normally put it in quotes, but that doesn't work with the episode title. Maybe put the episode in quotes, since they do have official titles, and are released on DVD/video essentially as stand-alone episodes, and leave the other as is (i.e. In the Elmo's World episode "Animals"). Or start experimenting with single quotes, but then that gets messy, and harder to make sure everyone's on the same page on. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 04:16, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I know we're not Wikipedia, but their manual of style might be helpful in this regard. Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Manual of Style (titles). Based on that, my suggestion would be italics only for The Muppet Show and Sesame Street, with quotation marks for everything else:

The "Elmo's World" segment in "Episode XXXX" of Sesame Street was titled "Animals".

For Muppet Show sketches, we should probably do the same. Even though "Pigs in Space" and "Veterinarian's Hospital" were styled as TV shows, they were not such in reality and should use quotation marks. I would be okay with omitting quotation marks on the titles of individual instances of sketches within lists:

• "Pigs in Space": The Headlight of a Motorcycle

If referred to in prose, however, "The Headlight of a Motorcycle" should be used. Powers 12:23, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I think Elmo's World should be italicized, because it's essentially a separate show within Sesame Street. EW has its own video releases, and its own episodes. So my vote is for the "Animals" episode of Elmo's World.

I also think recurring sketches should have quotes: "Pigs in Space", "Vet's Hospital". I don't think the description of the individual sketch should have anything, since they're not really titles. So: "Vet's Hospital": Duck, or "Bear on Patrol": Banananose Moldanado. -- Danny (talk) 15:58, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Adoption Category

Just wondering --- what's going on with the Adoption category? When I load the category list, it shows up in red, but it says that it has 5 members. And when I click on it, it shows there being five articles in it, but it also says that the page is a preview and has not been saved. It's really... bizarre. George B. (talk) 01:19, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

All fixed. — Scott (talk) 01:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Just for the record, George, it's not bizarre. That's what happens when category tags are added to pages before the category is created, and then the person in question forgets or gets busy or otherwise never actually creates the category. The same effect happens when existing category titles are misspelled or formatted, thus categorizing the page in a new, non-existant category. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 03:14, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I see. How curious. Okay, thanks for the info. George B. (talk) 03:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Song ID

I've added a new section to Muppet Wiki:Still Stumping. — Scott (talk) 16:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Performers

Justa a heads up. We've talked about finding better ways to make categories accessible to newcomers. One thing which has helped is grouping related categories into a broader, easier to remember heading, like Characters, Merchandise, and International. Anyway, prompted partially by a discussion with Julian (who wasn't sure where to find German puppeteers), I've just done the same, creating Category:Performers, under which can be found Actors (for on-camera performers, and I've included Performer Cameos as well), Puppeteers (for Muppet performers, Muppet puppeteers, Creature Shop puppeteers, etc.), and Voice Actors. I'll probably add in Celebrities later on (though I'm half rethinking myself on that, since some celebrities' involvement had nothing to do with performing in Muppet/Henson productions). Anyway, hope this simplifies things, and if I missed any categories, feel free to add them in! -- Andrew Leal (talk) 05:05, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

That's a great idea, yay! My feeling is don't put Celebrities into the Performers category, but the other stuff yes. -- Danny (talk) 13:25, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, the more I thought about it, that seemed problematic, and besides everyone knows where to find Celebrities. It's one word. However, the precise phrasing on some of the others can sometimes be hard to remember, or in some cases, users aren't even aware the category exists. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 14:20, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Animal Jam Episodes Help?

I just found out that I get Discovery Kids, which airs Animal Jam still. The magic and wonder of TiVo will allow me to get any and all episodes that air, though its not at my apartment, so I can only work on it when I go home for weekends and stuff (which works out okay, because I'll just hit the updates hard on those weekends). My question though, is that I haven't been able to find a site that lists the airing order, so even though I have episode titles, I can't order them 101 and so on (was it 2 seasons? I'm not too familiar with the show, but since I get it I'd like to learn). Anyway, I just wanted to hear thoughts as to how I should input the episodes without this information, or see if anyone has an order that I can detail accordingly. Thanks all. --Cantus Rock 21:43, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

That's cool, I'm glad you're getting them! If they've got episode titles, then maybe we'll just use those for now, and put in episode numbers later when/if we find them. But just having the episode names up would be a good step. -- Danny (talk) 02:26, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, another beauty of the mighty TiVo is the pretty decent info they give you on the guide menu, which includes titles thankfully (as far as I've seen they don't list titles in the credits, though they do give song titles, which is another excellent plus. It seems like a very managable series to work on). I've already got 2 down, I should have about 4 or 5 before I have to leave again. Should I just make articles with the title (ie. "A Hug A Day" as the title) and categorize them as [[Category: Animal Jam Episodes]] for now? --Cantus Rock 03:48, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that's great. Maybe as you watch them, you might pick up some differences that would at least help to figure out which ones are season 1 vs season 2 (if there actually were two seasons, which I dunno). -- Danny (talk) 13:24, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Cool, I'll get started on the ones I've got recorded then. I'm hoping that Discovery Kids airs them in order and that there is a distinguishable first episode (which is usually the case for both). That way when the series loops, I can figure it out that way and organize accordingly. :) --Cantus Rock 13:40, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia Links

Not a major issue, but a pet peeve of mine that I thought I'd mention. Wikipedia tags. {{wikipedia}}, are used on a lot of pages for celebrities, actors, and references (for characters and Muppet performers, it's generally agreed upon not include Wikipedia links, since if our page isn't better than theirs in those areas, it should be). I'm fine with that, but sometimes such links are added and the page just doesn't exist. Either it hasn't been created, or the link goes to someone else with the same name, or to a redirect (on Wikipedia, Charlie McCarthy redirects to Edgar Bergen, and that page has less info on Charlie than we do!) Not a big deal, easily fixed, true, but it crops up often enough that I thought I'd mention it. The easiest way to prevent it is, when adding a Wikipedia link, especially for a semi-obscure subject or fictional character, is to preview the page first, and click the link. If the page doesn't exist or its the wrong person, take it out.

And a related tip, especially for our newer members. If Wikipedia *does* have a related page, but it doesn't have the same title as ours, or the link goes to a disambig, use this format {{wikipedia2|subject}}. Carry on! -- Andrew Leal (talk) 00:45, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, looking at what links to Wikipedia, maybe it's worth discussing in general. I've found a lot more puppeteers and Sesame Street cast members' pages include Wikipedia links than I thought. I know Danny and I discussed it with Nate long ago, but I can't find it, and I don't know if it was in current events or in a talk page or user page where it went basically unnoticed. I don't want to yank pages if others think they're useful, though I did pull a few where the Wikipedia page either a) copied us or IMDb and offered little else, b) was a one line stub, or c) ABC-DEF-GHI‎, for which there's no real reason to link to Wikipedia that I can see. It seems to me that the purpose of linking to Wikipedia is to offer more information on a topic. Thus, since most of our entries on celebrities are either one or two lines or just some biographical info but with the major focus on their Muppet relevance, it makes sense. Same goes for things like China or fairy tale figures like The Big Bad Wolf or Prince Charming, where we only focus on one depiction of them. And with someone like Ron Mueck, whose career branched out beyond the Muppets, and where Wikipedia's page covers aspects of their life and work that don't really fit in here. But I'm not really sure there's really a point in Wikipedia links for Eric Jacobsen and Bill Barretta. In the discussion which I can't find, Nick said his hope was that someone would click on the Wikipedia link, see the stub or lousy page, and try to improve it. That's fine sentiment, but Wikipedia's bigger than us and doesn't exactly *need* our linkbacks, and while editors are naturally free to help out Wikipedia if they like, I'd rather we focus attentions on improving Muppet Wiki. So basically, in addition to my earlier points (and I removed a few faulty links), I'm in favor of limiting Wikipedia links for the Muppet performers, most major Sesame cast members, Gerry Parkes, and folk like that, as well as on Muppet productions and songs. We have some Creature Shop links too, but a lot of those, where the Shop was basically an effects house, we've given short-shrift too, just focusing on the Creature Shop credits and involvement, so I see a benefit to that. Thoughts? -- Andrew Leal (talk) 01:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree. I wish I could add more in order to add extra weight to my agreement, but you said everything that I would want to say. I think on pages where our version is more complete and informative than Wikipedia's, we should take the Wikipedia link out. -- Danny (talk) 19:47, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I do think that Celebrities (not Muppet cast like Sonia Manzano or Richard Hunt) should all be linked to Wikipedia, if only because I like the consistency. -- Peter (talk) 13:36, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, sure. Like I said earlier, it's only core-Muppet style people, and pages where the Wikipedia page is non-existent etc., that I'm concerned about, which is why I mentioned those. Celeb wikipedia links are useful. So I guess we're in agreement there. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 14:39, 6 September 2006 (UTC)