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Muppet Wiki:Current Events Archive 05 (Feb 2006)

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Archiving discussions from Current events.

Emmet Otter's Jug-band Christmas Categories

Right now we have three Emmet Otter's Jug-band Christmas categories:

Now, I know we don't include "Jim Henson's" or "Jim Henson presents" on any show titles. And I know we have cut the "The" of the titles for categorization (such as Muppet Show Sketches and StoryTeller Episodes). But some other productions are shortened other ways (for example we have Bunny Picnic Characters rather than "Tale of the Bunny Picnic Characters"; and we have Wubbulous World Episodes rather than "Wubbulous World of Dr. Seuss Episodes"). I guess it is a case-by-case thing in some instances. So what are we doing with Emmet Otter's Jug-band Christmas. I would assume the hyphen should be in Jug-band (as that's how the official stuff has it titled), but are we going with "Emmet Otter's Jug-Band Christmas" or just "Emmet Otter" for the categories revolving around the special? They should all be the same, and all three are different right now. What should we do? – BradFraggle 22:44, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Good point. Personally, I'd vote for "Emmet Otter" as a category name. Though we don't normally use character names for such things, and it could theoretically be confusing, I think it makes sense, just as there's Elmo in Grouchland Characters rather than the full title, and any other shortening would be more trouble than it's worth, i.e. "Jug-Band Christmas," "Emmet Otter's Jug-Band, " etc. If we go for the full title, it should be hyphenated, as that's how the on-screen title card has it. --Andrew, '"Aleal 22:50, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
I vote for just plain Emmet Otter. Short-hand should be used for such things. -- Scott, Scarecroe 20:05, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Songs Template

I might have overlooked it, but is there a template for songs yet? If not, just thought it might be cool to have a simple little template set up for the music and lyric credits. Much like the ones for books and performers, etc. --Radionate 06:24, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Characters Who Look Similar

Today I thought that it might be nice to add an article to the Lists category that lists characters who look simialr to other characters, but then I wondered if it was a good idea. What do you think?

Of course, by characters who look similar, I mainly mean characters who unintentionally look similar, not characters that look similar because they are related (like Fozzie Bear and Ma Bear), or characters who look similar becasue of some kind of joke (like Kermit the Frog and Timrek the Gorf). I mean characters who look similar but most likely not on purpose (like Count von Count and The Amazing Mumford, or Sully and Bruno the Trashman). And most importantly, would a page like this be too opinionated? --Minor muppetz 06:16, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I think those characters look similar because they're built using the same Anything Muppet. So while it's not intentional, it's also not coincidental. --Erik Ebrowne 21:00, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

How to refer to Muppet Show episodes?

Style-wise, we're all over the map right now with how to refer to a Muppet Show episode in a sentence. Sometimes, we're writing "Episode 313 of The Muppet Show", sometimes "The Muppet Show, Episode 313: Helen Reddy", and other times, any number of variations. I've experimented with maybe four different versions myself. So I think it would be a good idea for us to come up with a standard format.

My preference is: "Sopwith the Camel first appeared in The Muppet Show Episode 313". The episode numbers are already set up to redirect to the appropriate page. What do other people think? -- Danny Toughpigs 13:29, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I really don't like the second example. It needs to sound right if you were to say it out loud, instead of writing it out like technical directions. Either "Episode 313 of The Muppet Show" or "The Muppet Show Episode 313" is more correct.
Also, linking to Episode 113 is really annoying to me because you can't roll over the link and see what episode it is. I have to actually click on the link and go to the page, which, on this server, can take forever. Slight annoyance. -- Scott Scarecroe 16:23, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
So you like The Muppet Show Episode 313?
I agree, it's annoying that we can't roll over it to see which episode it is, but most of the time, the guest star is pretty irrelevant to the sentence. For example: "Bobby Benson first appeared as a Whatnot trumpeter in Episode 215; he was introduced as Bobby in Episode 319." In that sentence, do you really need to know who the guest stars were? The important information is where the episodes were in the series. -- Danny Toughpigs 16:36, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
The way we write it doesn't makes a difference so long as it works as a sentence. I don't think we really need a standard for something like that. -- Scott, Scarecroe 16:49, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Are we definitely always capitalizing the E in episode? Because I think The Muppet Show episode 313 looks better.
Yeah, it's more correct, too. I figure most people forget to do it as the first letter of article titles are capitalized by default. Forcing oneself to write out [[Episode 113: Bruce Forsyth|episode 113]] might help with that. As easy as it makes editing pages, I really don't like just writing [[Episode 113: Bruce Forsyth|episode 113]]. -- Scott Scarecroe 18:10, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
And with what Scott said, with the other shows you can't just put ''[[Muppets Tonight]]'' [[episode 101]] in order to get Muppets Tonight episode 101. You have to do [[Episode 101: Michelle Pfeiffer|episode 101]]. I think doing it for The Muppet Show too is a good idea.
Also just to toss thing out here: on other sites and wiki's I've seen things like "Sopwith the Camel first appeared on The Muppet Show (313)" (with the specific episode as a note on the total show). And I've seen "Sopwith the Camel first appeared on The Muppet Show: episode 313" (With the series just implied through the episode).
I like doing Muppet Show episode 113 (with the full title in roll-over) best because I have no clue off hand what happened in 113 or what 113 was in context (but by having access to Bruce Forsyth give my brain that). It also makes the format for Muppets Tonight and other shows somewhat the same. Howevering writting "episode 113 of The Muppet Show" or "The Muppet Show episode 113" is irrelevent to me, both are "correct". Whatever works in the article and sentence. -- BradFraggle 21:18, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Right, Bruce Forsyth brings context to the sentence. 113 means nothing to me. Good point on the fact that you can do the shorthand with the other shows, so it's best to keep in good practice with The Muppet Show as well.
I started off saying I didn't think we really needed a standard for this, but I'm seeing the need for it now. -- Scott, Scarecroe 22:14, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I didn't think about how doing it that way gives you the full title as a roll-over; that's a good point. I like capitalizing the E in Episode, although at the moment I couldn't really tell you why. I just think it looks cool. -- Danny Toughpigs 23:52, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I figured it out -- I like capitalizing the E, because it looks like it's the title of something. "This character appeared in Episode 313 of The Muppet Show" looks better to me than "This character appeared in episode 313 of The Muppet Show". Am I alone in that? -- Danny Toughpigs 18:30, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

It's in the Eyes

This came to me in a Sesame Workshop newsletter. I'm not sure exactly where or how it could be used, but it definitely seemed like something that would be of interest here:

"Muppet designers use different sized pupils depending upon how young or old they want a Muppet to look. The smaller the pupil, the older the Muppet looks; the larger the pupil, the younger the Muppet looks." Agent0042 05:03, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

That's actually pretty standard. The same design ethic has been used for ages on animated characters.--Pantalones 05:35, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I think it would fit nicely into a page on Muppet Eyes, which could go in the Behind the Scenes section... -- Danny Toughpigs 12:29, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Okay. Do I just say that the information is courtesy of Sesame Workshop, then? I think I may even be able to link to the newsletter where I found it, if you like. Agent0042 03:18, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, put in the whole reference -- the quote, with the name and number of the newsletter, and a link. -- Danny Toughpigs 17:22, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Okay, you got it. I will get that done by the end of today. Agent0042 23:18, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
I added the information, but I wasn't able to link to the newsletter directly because it's not in their archive yet. I imagine it should be there within a week or two though. Agent0042 01:59, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

International Fraggle Rock

Jog has been adding some cool international Fraggle merchandise pages -- Curris Doozer Vehicles and Schleich Fraggle Rock Figures. I propose that we create an International Fraggle Rock category, the same way we have with International Sesame Street. We could have information on the different shows, the different Doc and Sprockets, and the merchandise. Obviously, there's only two new characters -- a Doc and a Sprocket -- for each show, but they could all live together in an "International Fraggle Rock Characters" category.

While we're at it, we may also want to create an International Muppet Show category, to list the different translations and merchandise that we know about. What do people think? -- Danny Toughpigs 15:39, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Isn't that kind of complicated? I mean, Schleich figures were made in Germany, Comics Spain figures were made in Spain, Curris stuff comes from Italy and the Pedigree Fraggle dolls were available in England; you'd have to waddle through all sorts of categories to find them, instead of just checking the regular "Fraggle PVC" or "Fraggle Dolls" categories to find them all in one list...
I think Sesame is a different case, because the international versions of those are clearly different shows. The same could be said about Fraggle Rock - DVDs that feature the British Doc & Sprocket scenes, for instance - but every piece of merchandise is based on the American characters... -- Jog 15:47, 21 February 2006 (UTC) Jog
Oh, I'm not suggesting we make a German Fraggle Merchandise and a Spanish Fraggle Merchandise. Just one big International Fraggle Rock Merchandise category, that has all those things. -- Danny Toughpigs 16:02, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Oh, I see... You mean, kind of like the Muppet Christmas category? That you'd put them in both "Fraggle Rock PVCs" and "Fraggle Rock International Merchandise" or something? I think that would work... Also, in the case of books, maybe it's fun to feature a list of translated titles in each book entry. Just like Cookie Monster's international names. -- Jog 09:43, 22 February 2006 (UTC) Jog
No, I'm thinking of modeling it after the International Sesame stuff. "Fraggle Rock PVCs" would have the American PVCs, "Fraggle Rock International PVCs" would have the Spanish and German and Dutch PVCs. I know, it's US-centric, but it's a US-based wiki. Oh, dear, I just realized that that's not very Fraggly. I should be creating peace and unity throughout the world. Oh well. I still think it's a good idea.
And I think translated titles in the book entries is a great idea. If you've got 'em, go for it! It would be cool to have that for episode titles, too. -- Danny Toughpigs 11:26, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Heh, I never really thought of the "US-based" part. Being a foreign collector myself, I often don't even make the distinction between National and International! But I see where you come from, and I don't think it's a bad idea at all. I'll see what I can do about books and episode titles as well! -- Jog 14:08, 22 February 2006 (UTC) Jog
Hey, check it out -- international understanding! Turns out the Fraggles were right after all! -- Danny Toughpigs 14:16, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Is this a cue for a musical number? I created the International Merchandise category already: check it out, yo! -- Jog 14:42, 22 February 2006 (UTC) Jog
I created pages for the three major co-productions the other day (look here). I think with the whole "US-based" part of the Wiki (and the Muppets in general) its that Henson and The Muppets are American based companies and creations. They are world-wide sensations, but they are US based. Henson is a US company. To Henson, a German Fraggle Rock doll would be an international product. A French DVD release of The Muppet Show would be done by Disney's international branches. It's like Sam Eagle in Muppet-vision 3-D with his "Tribute to All the Nations of the World but Mostly America". -- BradFraggle 01:22, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Name That Puppet

Moved to Name That Puppet -- Scott Scarecroe 14:47, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Nice, that's a good idea. -- Danny Toughpigs 14:59, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Book Template

I did some tweaking to the Book Template this afternoon and finally figured out how to make the fields dynamic. Meaning if you leave an object blank, it won't show up on the article. So no more "Series: _____" when there's no info for a book as being part of a series. Just an omission of that field altogether so it looks neater.

Now that I know how to do it, we can use it on other templates, like [[Template:Designer|Designer]], but I figured I'd post about it here first. Andrew's mostly been the keeper of the t==emplate and I don't know much about it. So if works, we can go ahead and use it. -- Scott Scarecroe 00:10, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

So I no longer have to worry about this problem for the Bear template. Sweet. Agent0042 03:52, 17 February 2006 (UTC)


What's our policy on apostrophes when not using a contraction or showing possession: 1980's or 1980s? DVD's or DVDs? Wikipedia says no apostrophe, so I think we should all be in agreement. There's been talk of a Writing Style Guide being made up for the wiki, so we should have a place to talk about it and make suggestions. -- Scott Scarecroe 14:43, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I never really thought about it; I've always used 1980's. I just did a Google search for "apostrophes decade", and pretty much everybody says that 1980s is correct -- although newspapers use 1980's, including The New York Times, if that matters. If we want to say no apostrophes for decades, I'd be okay with that. -- Danny Toughpigs 15:54, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I never ever though of putting an apostrophe in DVDs and I don't understand why anybody would. Decades, I don't usually use apostrophes either, but I don't really have a strong opinion on it. Agent0042 21:28, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I have a strong pet peeve about it. So my vote is for the correct version. New York Times can eat my hat. -- Scott Scarecroe 00:10, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
The proper English way is 1980s (no apostrophe). Example: "This character was seen in a 1980's Sesame Street skit." means the skit belongs to the year 1980; "This character was seen in a 1980s Sesame Street skit." means the skit is from the decade between 1980-1989. However if you shorten it to '80s or '97 then you use the apostrophe at the start to shorten off the 19. DVDs, CDs and the likes don't have apostrophes either (unless you mean possession). -- BradFraggle 03:36, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Apostrophes aren't used at the beginning of a decade anymore, just like we don't write 'phone to abbreviate telephone anymore. -- Scott Scarecroe 03:49, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

The St. Martin's Grammar Handbook says to use an apostrophe to form the plural of numbers, letters, symbols, and words referred to as terms, including 8's, ABC's, and DVD's. Years (1980's) are optional.

External Links?

I know that shopping links are not allowed. But I've seen some other questionable links being added to pages, and I wanted to know what the rules were. The first is to external unofficial song lyric pages. I know we can't post lyrics here, but can we link to pages with the lyrics? The second question is about links to videos? There were some on Sesame Street News Flash but MuppetVJ removed them due to uncertainty of allowability. And, for example, there's on on King of 8 - and some other pages have them too. Are they appropriate here? What'is the rule of thumb on linking to downloads and such? -- BradFraggle 04:29, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, Scott added many of the News Flash clips back in, only embedded in the title. So maybe quasi-legal items are allowed as long as we don't draw attention to them? I agree, though, it's a tricky issue. --Andrew, Aleal 04:44, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
My feeling on linking to videos is that it's okay. We're not providing direct links to downloadable MPGs that people can burn onto a DVD. It's streaming video of a clip that has never been commercially available. If I see a link to a video for something that anyone can go out and buy in a store, I'm going to remove it. But that's just me. As it's become a concern, we should define what our policy is on that situation.
Lyrics, I'm fuzzy on. They've got copyright which we're not breaking here. So far what's been linked to from here have been fan transcripts. Perhaps they should be worded that way. -- Scott Scarecroe 00:30, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
What about things like Fifty Ways to Leave Your Lover, where the clip is directly taken from the DVD release? I know the Time Life/Columbia volumes are getting harder to find, and most aren't listed as new at Amazon anymore, but I feel iffier about that kind of thing than I do the Sesame Street rarities or the Wilkins commercials and so on. (I actually wasted way too much time relishing the original "What's the Name of That Song" clip).--Andrew, Aleal 00:57, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
If it's questionable, probably best to skip it. Even so, if Disney has an issue with it, they can take it up with YouTube. We're just linking. -- Scott Scarecroe 01:33, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I don't think we would be penalized for linking to questionable pages. If we're going to get hit with a copyright suit, it's going to be for stuff that we do, not for stuff that we link to. I think YouTube and lyrics links are okay. Not linking to commercially available stuff is a separate issue, which I agree with. Should we try to come up with a formal guideline for that, or just police it case by case? -- Danny Toughpigs 15:58, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Book-and-???? sets

I was just about to add a category called Book-and-Tape, but I stopped when I realized that Book-and-Record and Book-and-CD sets should also go there. Anyone have a suggestion for what we should call that? Book-and-Album sounds funny. -- Scott Scarecroe 00:33, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

How about either "Book and Audio," or even "Audio Books"? Although I know the latter usually implies just a recording and no accompanying text. --Andrew, Aleal 00:41, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I like Book and Audio. Do you think it should be Book-and-Audio Sets? -- Scott Scarecroe 00:57, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Book-and-Audio Sets makes sense to me. It's a bit longer, but also more explicit. Only slight concern I have is whether users will tend to forget the two dashes. --Andrew, Aleal 00:59, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I suppose you're right. The dashes are more correct, but it's also more fumbly. I'm gonna keep the "Sets" though so as not to cause confusion with the separate entities. Thanks for your input! -- Scott Scarecroe 01:31, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Non-Muppet Productions Again (Related Question)

To briefly bring back up the question of info on non-muppet productions, is okay to add credits for non-Muppet productions on pages for cast/crew? I.E., if I wanted to add Blue's Room credits at the Tim Lagasse page, would that be okay? Agent0042 03:00, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

That's definitely allowed. It's already been done on quite a few pages (see Noel MacNeal). I think the main concern is with creating, say, character pages for Blue or Between the Lions folks, and episode guides and such. --Andrew, Aleal 03:04, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Songs With Same Titles

I posted a question in the Songs category, but last I checked nobody answered. So what I want to know is, how should we list songs that have the exact same title but completely different lyrics? There have been quite a few of these kinds of songs. For example, there have been two Sesame Street songs called "Air", one with Bip Bippadotta and one with Guy Smiley, and they are obviously different songs. There are also two songs called "Naptime", one from Sesame Street with Ernie and Bert and one from The Muppets Wizard of Oz. Should we just list the title, and then talk about both songs, or list two seperate titles, such as "Naptime (Sesame Street)" and "Naptime (The Muppets Wizard of Oz)"? --Minor muppetz 15:46, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

We've been using the second format you explain with most everything else, so I'd say that's the one to go with. -- Scott Scarecroe 16:28, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Designer Box Template

Greetings, citizens! There's current experimentation with a new designers template along the same lines as the performer template, to make information on who designed and/or fabricated our favorite puppets. It's also currently flexible enough to use for animated characters. Right now, the test cases are Scred and Waldo C. Graphic. Comments and suggestions are welcomed here, or at Template talk:Designer. --Andrew, Aleal 05:18, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Top 25 Muppet Wiki posters

Hey, we've got working stats again, so I've brought back the Top 25 Muppet Wiki posters list. Stop by and see where you rank! Of course, quality is more important than quantity, but still, quantity is nice, isn't it? -- Danny Toughpigs 22:56, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Featured Wikicity

As announced, Joe nominated us for Featured Wikicity a few weeks ago and we got the most votes. The Wikicities people haven't stepped up to do anything about it yet, so I figured with the second week of the month upon us, I'd go ahead and do it myself. Check it out on the main page and edit wikicities:Featured_Wikicity/Muppet/Blurb for any changes. -- Scott Scarecroe 16:55, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

You're hilarious. -- Danny Toughpigs 17:03, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I just filled out the blurb a little bit. If anybody else wants to mess with it, please go ahead. Once you edit the blurb, then you have to do a little edit on the Wikicities Main Page to get it to reload the blurb template. -- Danny Toughpigs 17:19, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Hooray! We are famous! -- JParanoid 18:27, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Talk Pages

When answering questions on talk pages, don't forget to add that information to the article. Otherwise the talk box might be removed without the question having been resolved. -- Scott Scarecroe 16:25, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Andrew is now an admin

Let it be known henceforth to all and sundry that Andrew (User:Aleal) is now an administrator for Muppet Wiki. Scott and I decided to give Andrew admin powers in recognition of his amazing work here over the last month.

Andrew joined the wiki on January 6th, and he's made over 1200 page edits since then -- adding new information, revising, organizing categories, and doing general housekeeping. He's helped out a lot with spotting and reverting vandalism, and he's shown in many ways that he cares about the quality and integrity of the wiki.

Most importantly, Andrew has demonstrated an eagerness and a talent for collaboration that we want to recognize as a model of wikicitizenship. Good communication is the backbone of this kind of collaborative project, and Andrew is great at it. He posts a lot on article talk pages, and directly to users -- asking for clarification, clearing up misunderstandings, and proposing new ideas. He's gradually been taking on an admin role, and we want to make that official. Andrew, thanks for your great work, and we're happy to be collaborating with you! -- Danny Toughpigs 18:51, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Time Out policy

I'm working on a new Time Out policy for the wiki, to help avoid situations where two editors are changing the same thing back and forth on a page. When I write pages like this, I'm never sure that my explanation makes sense or not. What do folks think of this idea, and the way it's written up? -- Danny Toughpigs 14:31, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

It seems written very well to me and seems like it should work. It makes sense anyway, obviously if there's back and forth editing, then there's something going on that needs to be resolved. Agent0042 20:21, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Italics, etc.

Just bumping this topic back up as a reminder. I would move the original discussion up, but I don't want to mess with the archive structure. That discussion is here if you want to see it.

The short version is that titles go in italics. That includes movies, television series, books, album titles and specials. Episode names and songs go in quotations. -- Scott Scarecroe 02:28, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

That's a good point to bring up, or to bump, as it were. I never was sure whether we were aiming for that particular element of style, so I've been consistent with it. But from now on, italics it is. -Ryan R PrawnRR 03:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I haven't really been following it very well, but I will definitely remember to do it from now on. Agent0042 05:24, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Actors Categories

The discussion was getting all squished again, and anyway we're into a new stage. I accidentally created it first as a page instead of a category, but there's now a Muppet Movies Actors category. --Aleal 01:31, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I say we go with Muppet Movies Actors (with a subcategory of Muppet Movies Cameos); Muppet TV Shows Actors (with a subcategories of Sesame Street Cast, Muppet Show Guest Stars, and Muppets Tonight Guest Stars); Muppet Specials Actors; and Creature Shop Actors. -- BradFraggle 02:58, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm down with all that, yo. --Aleal 03:41, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Okay, all the above exist! A lot of migrating still to do, but boy we've accomplished a lot! (Still not sure what to do with the Sesame Street sketch people, but for now, I'm sticking them back in Sesame Street Cast; they can be moved to a subcategory later). --Andrew, Aleal 04:12, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
That's awesome! You guys worked like crazy on this today; it's good stuff. There's one general principle that I've been trying to follow with categories, which is that ideally a category should have either articles or subcategories, but not both. If an article has, say, 120 articles and two subcategories, then the subcats sit there at the top of the page, taking up practically the whole screen. That's why, instead of making subcats in a lot of instances, I've been doing the See also: thing at the top of category pages. Just FYI for you guys. -- Danny Toughpigs 04:21, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

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