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Muppet Wiki:Current Events Archive 04 (Feb 2006)

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Archiving discussions from Current events.

Celebrities, Actors and Cast

(Note: I moved this discussion from Category talk:Non-Famous Actors because I thought it was of general interest to the wiki. The way the discussion is going, it's possible that category will get deleted at some point, so I didn't want the discussion page to get deleted too. -- Danny Toughpigs 17:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC))

I just wanted to know what others have thought of this category. It's mainly to list actors/ actresses who aren't celebrities or regulars on any shows. I mainly did this so that there can be a category for gerry parkes, who plays Doc on Fraggle Rock, and that show doesn't really have any other actors to justify a Fraggle Rock Actors category. --Minor muppetz 01:35, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

MinorMuppetz, I get you (as you know, this is one of the points up for discussion on the main page). However, as a category, it strikes me as awkward, and almost insulting. I've moved Debbie to Muppet Specials Cast. For Gerry and others, as noted, a decision hasn't been reached yet, but I think either "Muppet TV Cast" or even just plain "Actors" would be better. --Andrew, Aleal 01:42, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Maybe we should have another vote, for how this category should be titled. --Minor muppetz 01:46, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I've mentioned the issue on Current Events. Now we wait and see. Andrew, Aleal 01:49, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I think this category is too blurry and subjective. What is non-famous? Where do we draw the line? Being an actor is objective - you are or you are not. Being a co-star in a Muppet production is objective. But being famous is subjective and hard to define. Is it how well-known your name is? And among who? Among Muppet fans Gerry is very famous. Or is about it how many other projects you've been in? Gerry Parkes has been in a ton of things (just look here. He's been in a lot more productions than other "famous" actors here. I mean Meredith Braun (Belle from MCC) would be more of a "non-famous" actor along with most of the kids from Sesame Street, and some of the other bit parts and walk-on roles in many productions. I think its just tough to define fairly. A human co-star category for people billed as equal stars with the Muppets in the productions would be fair (each movie/special/show has just about 1 or 2 - if any). But saying "Non-famous" is just asking for problems (in my opinon). -- BradFraggle 03:16, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Maybe this category should be changed to something along the lines of Actors and Actresses, but then do we include everyone who has appeared on-screen in a Henson production? Do we include basically all celebrities, as well as all muppet performers who have made on-cameos in Henson productions? I was also thinking about how I mainly added this category so that Gerry Parkes could be listed in a category, but then I realized that since Doc was played by different actors depending on the country, there could possibly be a Fraggle Rock Cast category. Or perhaps there could be a TV Human Actors category for humans who acted in shows that basically only had one human in the cast. --Minor muppetz 03:38, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
We already have Muppet Movie Cast, Creature Shop Cast, and Muppet Specials Cast, plus individual performer cameo pages. So if we were to make it simply "Actors," it would by definition be a place for those outside all the above, and one could state as much in the heading. That said, I still favor either "Muppet TV Cast," in following the form set by others, or "Henson TV Cast" (but probably Muppet TV Cst would suffice, as live actors from Dinosaurs and Aliens in the Family are already taken care of in Creature Shop Cast, and just about everything else would follow into one of the other categories). --Aleal 06:35, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Michael, thanks for creating the category and starting this discussion... I think the "Cast" categories are a more elegant solution than "Non-Famous Actors", which just sounds sad. "Fraggle Rock Cast" is a good idea, and so is "Muppet TV Cast".
Scott and I have been talking about the Celebrities category for a long time; it's a tricky category. Some of it is a "you know it when you see it" situation. Obviously, there's people who are clearly celebrities -- guest stars, movie cameos, that kind of thing -- where the whole point of that person's appearance is that they're a celebrity. There are some others who are more debatable.
Gates McFadden appears in Muppets Take Manhattan, and we classify her as a Celebrity, although she wasn't famous when that movie was made, and she isn't even that famous now. Is David Canary famous? Soap opera fans know who he is, but other people don't.
My opinion is that if somebody is well known among a sizeable group -- science-fiction fans, soap opera fans, NASCAR fans, country music fans -- then that's enough to qualify as a Celebrity. I personally wouldn't recognize a single NASCAR driver except Jeff Gordon, but if somebody wanted to add the drivers who interacted with the Muppets a few years ago, then yeah, they'd be in the Celebrities category.
All that being said, I don't think Gerry Parkes belongs in Celebrities. He's famous to us, but only for his Fraggle Rock role, so it feels like circular logic to call him a Celebrity for that. I also don't think that being in movies and other TV shows makes him a Celebrity. Probably most of the people who end up in the Cast categories are working actors who've had a number of roles. In order to be a Celebrity, they also have to do something notable that would make a group of people recognize his or her name. -- Danny Toughpigs 17:42, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I feel that they're all celebrities. It might be a generalization, but I'm comfortable with that for the sake of organization, simplicity and our sanity. -- Scott Scarecroe 18:22, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that word means what you think it means. That dictionary definition says that a celebrity is somebody who's celebrated, and celebrated is defined as: "to hold up or play up for public notice". So I think in order to be a celebrity, you need to earn public notice. So Tim Curry and David Bowie are Celebrities, while Meredith Braun and Perry Anzilotti aren't. I don't think that taxes our sanity much. -- Danny Toughpigs 18:47, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
It's a tough topic because the term is relative and each case is opinion based. I forsee a number of cases coming up where we disagree on whether or not someone is a celebrity. As you and I already have. -- Scott Scarecroe 18:51, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, but I think those conversations are fun. -- Danny Toughpigs 19:05, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
There's already a slightly related question in Muppet Movie Cast over distinguishing cast members from cameos. The problem I have with just lumping Gerry Parkes or, say, the folks on Big Bag (and most of the latter, being Florida based, have done very little in film/TV outside of that), and so forth in celebrities is just how large that category is. It encompasses cameos, features guest stars on Sesame Street and The Muppet Show, people who appeared with the Muppets on talk shows or commercials, people whose songs were on Muppet albums, people who never worked with but were referenced or spoofed by the Muppets, and folks interviewed for Muppet Magazine. And that's how it should be, but without the cast, Muppet Show Guest Stars and other sub categories, it would just be confusing, and somehow it feels odd to lump Gerry Parkes in with Kofi Annan (not to mention child actors, who seldom become celebrities in their own right; on the other hand, the celebrity status of Fay the Weimeraner is still under revue).
And even if a person can rightly be called a celebrity, there's no reason they can't be in more than one category. Take Ruth Buzzi, who's been a Muppet Show Guest Star, a Sesame Street Cast Member, and even a Sesame Street Voice Actor. I know too many categories can make a page look cluttered, but it makes sense as a cross-referencing tool, when applicable. Some of the current folks in celebrities could probably use sorting (I'd add Kathy Najimy and Keri Russell, and any other celebrity who appeared as a character and not just themselves, to Muppet Specials Cast).
Oh, and just to note on Perry Anzilotti, while definitely a non celeb, he has the odd distinction of playing the food samples guy ganged up upon by hungry women in those Snackwell "Hey Mr. Cookie Man!" spots. Which strikes me as a missed opportunity to make him a Muppet Celebrity by teaming him with Cookie Monster. ---Andrew, Aleal 19:35, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I think using the word "cast" is tricky. Kermit was in the cast for the Muppet Christmas Carol, and Jerry Nelson was part of Fraggle Rock's cast. What we mean are the human actors. There are a bunch of categories started and floating around the Wiki currently, and with a little work I think we can harness what we want. I would also stay away from saying "Muppet Movie Cast", as that makes me think of the cast of "The Muppet Movie"; something like "Muppet Film Cast" would be better (in my opinon).
I think a break down of something like this would do us well:..."Celebrities" (for basicically like the "Muppet Characters" cateogry but for real-world humans; actors, musicians, comedians, talk show hosts - eveyone is in it...). Then also have "Muppet Film Actors" (for people who had co-staring role in Muppet films), "Muppet Film Cameos" (for all the little walk-on roles and bit parts in the films), "Muppet TV Actors" (human cast members on any of the Muppet TV shows - could have a sub-category for the Sesame Street cast), "Muppet TV Guests" (for guests on TV shows - could have sub-categories for "Muppet Show" "Muppets Tonight", "Sesame Street"...), and "Muppet Specials Actors" (for the human actors in the TV specials). Just my 2-cents. -- BradFraggle 20:30, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I personally don't necessarily have a problem with the term "cast," especially as there's already the Category:Muppet Performers and its related subcategories, which clearly cover Nelson etc. (though I'd agree that on-camera cameos might be debatable, but all those are covered on individual pages anyway). Plus even on the movie pages themselves, we use the term "Muppet Performers," even if it is under a general "cast", and I don't see that it's worthwhile to subcategorize whether a performer worked in films or TV, since most worked in both (and that's a distinction better made on their individual pages anyway). If we're going to change it, to be consistent with the listings on the movie pages themselves, something like "Human Cast," assigned to specific subcategories, is good (and I still disagree with lumping *everyone* into celebrities). Also, there's already Sesame Street Cast as distinct from Sesame Street Characters (though the human characters are listed in the latter). Whatever other changes may be made, I don't really see a reason to rename or recat that one. To me, Characters, Cast, and Performers are all fairly distinct categories, which are more closely broken down on the film pages anyway (my only real quibble there being Muppet Movie Characters, as initially it would seem to be a place for characters created specifically for and generally only existing in Muppet Movies, i.e. Miss Finch, Ubergonzo, or Blind Pew).
And as for confusion with The Muppet Movie, I think that could be solved with a simple pluralization, "Muppet Movies Cast."--Aleal 20:42, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't like the word "cast", since it implies a single production (Cast: The actors in a play, movie, or other theatrical presentation). "Cast member" isn't bad, but "actor" is probably better. --Erik Ebrowne 20:57, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

(I'm bringing this back to the left margin, just so we don't get all squeezed up and fall off the right side of the page...)

The Celebrities category is supposed to be huge, that's the fun of it. The point of Celebrities is to be able to browse through it and see how many famous people have interacted with the Muppets -- kind of a "Six Degrees of Separation" game. It's fun to look through that list and say, wait, how is that person related? So the idea is for that to be as wide-ranging as possible, and include every famous person we can.

People can definitely be in multiple categories. Tim Curry is in Celebrities, Muppet Movie Cast, and Muppet Voice Actors; Steve Martin's in Celebrities, Muppet Movie Cast, and Muppet Show Guest Stars. I think it's a good question whether "Muppet Movie Cast" ought to include both cameos and major characters, though...

Unfortunately, there's about six different questions all mixed up in this discussion. Can someone list exactly what questions we're trying to answer here? If we had a list of the actual questions, then we could figure out which ones are easy to answer and which ones are tricky, and maybe take the trickiest ones to a vote. -- Danny Toughpigs 21:35, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I think if we use word "cast" it should be plural as we are talking about the casts of several films/shows/specials. And sometimes people aren't part of the cast but still appear in the production. I think "Actors" is a better term here. I do agree that "the Movie Character" category confused me at first. We have The Muppet Show Characters for the characters that were on the Muppet Show, so I thought it was for the Muppets who have been in the films (which would be a lot), or even ones made just for the films...but found it was the human characters (maybe a Human Characters category for Human characters in the productions – films, TV, specials would be beneficial)
I think lumping everyone into the celebrity category is not good as it is now. What is a celebrity? Jim Henson was one. However if we eliminate the category some people would be left floating with nowhere to go. Unless we create tons of categories to place people like for Jimmy Kimmel, Tom Bergeron, Phil McGraw or Lewis Carroll who have worked with the Muppets in someway be not directly in one of their productions. I would say if we scrap celebrity and create a "People" category for all real-world humans in the Wiki - performers, actors, writers, directors, composers, everyone! Then also have them categories based on their job, roles, or place. (like how the Muppet Character category is for every Muppet, which are then also broken into production or type). I have nothing against an article being in 10 different categories if it is appropriate. -- BradFraggle 21:46, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I think the question posed is what categories should we have to group people and actors on the Wiki? And What should we call them? -- BradFraggle 21:48, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Brad, I agree with you that we don't want to lump everyone into celebrity. However, I'm not sure an ell-encompassing People is much better@( But then, I also had problems with Wikipedia's "Living Persons" category. Also, I'm just a bit confused by this statement: " And sometimes people aren't part of the cast but still appear in the production." I don't really follow, unless you're making a distinction regarding talk show hosts or what not (and I still think they and their ilk fit best in celebrities). Otherwise, to my mind, anyone who appears on screen, provides a voice, or operates a puppet, regardless of billing or whether they play themselves, is a cast member. And in that light, I realize we left out one vital question. Any recategorization of cast members to emphasize "People" or "Human" *still* leaves out Fay Ray the Weimaraner! (Unless we want a seperate category for her, the real dogs who doubled for Foo Foo and Jo Jo, the bird who played Bernice if there was a consistent one, and "Jimmy Dean Show" guest star Lassie, who interacted with Rowlf). --Andrew, Aleal 21:58, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Hoo boy! It's all intertwined by now, but I think some of the key issues are:
1. What distinction should be made between movie cameos and movie co-stars/supporting players?
2. Should Gerry Parkes, Alyson Court, Serena Nelson from Big Bag, and other human co-stars be categorized as celebrities?
3. What categorical distinctions or terms, especially re specials and movies, should be used to distinguish human characters played by human actors and Muppet characters (presumably also played by humans, but that's beside the point), i.e. would Ebenezer Scrooge and Daddy Dodo go in the same category?
4. Do the current categories for human performers (Muppet Movie Cast, Muppet Specials Cast, Creature Shop Cast, and more debatably Sesame Street Cast need to be revised?
5. Should a new category be created to slot the folks from point no. 3, or should they be migrated into new renamed subcategories of the previously named?
6. Would Sesame Street folks like Bob McGrath and so on, who appeared in either of the two movies, go in movies (and also specials), or just stay where they are?
That's all the questions I could untangle, anyway. --Aleal 21:51, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I think we have two diffrent issues going on here. They are related but diffrent. One being how to group real-world people (like Gerry Parkes, Steve Martin, Jerry Nelson and Bob McGrath), and one on how to group fictional characters played by humans (Doc Hopper, Ronald Grump, Scrooge and Long John Silver). -- BradFraggle 22:06, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, Celebrities and Muppet Characters are my two favorite categories on the wiki. I love categories like that, because I think they're really browse-able... It's fun to spend a little while just poking through them and seeing who's in there. So I'm gonna defend the Celebrities category against all invaders.
Categories are a navigation tool. When you're putting things into categories, the relevant question is: When someone is looking at an article, and they click on the category to see what else is in there, what would be useful to see in that category? With that in mind, I think "People" is a completely unhelpful category. There's no reason why you'd legitimately want to go from Joe Raposo to Perry Anzilotti to Duncan Kenworthy; that's just a random assortment of names. What's relevant is that Raposo is a songwriter, that Kenworthy is a producer. I think people should be classified by the role that they play in the Muppet universe.
So here's my answers to those questions:
1. I think it could go either way. The description on the Muppet Movie Cast category page says not to include cameo guest stars -- but people did it anyway, which suggests that maybe that's not a relevant distinction.
2. I don't think Gerry Parkes or the Big Bag people are Celebrities. Outside of Fraggle Rock, nobody knows who Gerry Parkes is. I think you can see a clear distinction with the Sesame Street actors -- Ruth Buzzi, Raul Julia and Charlotte Rae are Celebrities, because they're known for their work outside of Sesame Street. Loretta Long is only known for her work on Sesame Street -- therefore, for the purposes of this wiki, she's a Sesame Street cast member, but not a Celebrity. Loretta and Gerry aren't Celebrities here, because they're family. You're never appreciated in your own home.
3. In Sesame Street Characters, we include both human and Muppet characters -- Gina and Big Bird are both Sesame characters. I think it makes sense to have a similar setup for each of the movies -- Muppet Movie Characters would include Kermit and Doc Hopper; Muppet Treasure Island Characters would have Long John Silver and Benjamina Gunn. Maybe we should do away with Muppet Movie Characters, and split them all out into the different movies?
4. If the word "Cast" bothers people, then I think it makes sense to change it to "Actors".
5. I think I answered this in #3.
6. The Sesame Street cast should be treated like characters and actors, same as everybody else -- so Bob would go in Sesame Movies Characters (or Follow That Bird Characters, or however it gets split out), and Bob McGrath would go in Sesame Movies Actors (or Follow That Bird Actors).
I feel like this is getting a little clearer; I hope you guys feel the same way... -- Danny Toughpigs 22:25, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
We have the category "Muppet Characters" for all the fictional Muppet puppet characters - Kermit, Grover, Wembley, etc. Why not have "Human Characters" for all the fictional human characters - Scrooge, Gordon, Doc, etc? Then we have the categories for specific production's characters. We have "Fraggle Rock Characters", this includes both the Muppet and Human Characters. We have "Sesame Street Characters", this includes both the Muppet and Human Characters. If one day we create "Tales from Muppetland Characters" or "Follow that Bird Characters" we can also include both the Muppet characters (also found in Muppet Characters) and the human characters (also found in human characters). Having a category for fictional human roles in TV specials is very broad. Why connect someone from "Hey Cinderella" with "The Muppets at Walt Disney World" in the same category? And will we then create "TV Specials Muppet Characters" to list all the Muppets that have been in a TV special? I think a human character category (like the Muppet Character one) would work. -- BradFraggle 22:39, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
One potential problem with "Human Characters": Farscape. Only two have entries so far, and maybe they could stick in their own category anyway, but many of the main characters on that, while not puppets, are aliens. I still think a "Specials Human Characters" is narrow enough as a category, mainly because I don't know how we all feel about tiny categories with only two categories, and I think it would be simpler not to just lump in Prince Robin and Willy with no subcategories to distinguish them. I personally have no problem lumping in the guard played by Charles Grodin from the Disney World special with "Hey Cinderella" folks. However, I'm warming up to the idea of having a "Human Characters" and a "Movies Characters" category, though, including both Mupps and actors, so Max and Spa'am would be included, but each would also have a "Muppet Character" or "Human Character" category, as is currently done with the Sesame folks and others. Also, I'm still not sure if we're coming to any decisions regarding Parkes etc. (just "Actors"?), so we may need a vote. And of course, this would be the time that Scott would add a nice Monster Maker page, thus tossing in a whole new slew of actors to categorize. --Andrew, Aleal 23:03, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, I would say the humans from Farscape, Labyrinth, Jack and the Beanstalk, etc. should be in Creature Shop Characters Category (which currently includes creature and human characters sorted by production). I guess we need a category for the Human Characters in "Muppet" productions (to complement the "Muppet Characters" category).
Also, I also think a general "Movie Characters" or "Specials Characters" category is somewhat pointless. Why would I want a list of the characters in "Muppet Treasure Island" lumped in with "Follow that Bird" and "Great Muppet Caper"? If it was "Great Muppet Caper Characters" or "Muppet Christmas Carol Characters" that would be useful (however soon Kermit would be in 1,000 categories if each production had its own character category). We have "Muppet Show Characters", "Jim Henson Hour Characters" and "Muppets Tonight Characters", rather than just "Muppet TV Show Characters". I think if we want to sort by production, we should sort characters by production - not by type of production.
We sort out the Muppet Characters from the big Muppet Characters cateogry by TV show aswell. Now do we need a categories to sort the characters for each specific film too? Maybe. -- BradFraggle 23:37, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, should have been clearer earlier. While I don't think Treasure Island should be lumped in with Follow That Bird, considering how far it's grown, I think a general "Movie Muppets Characters" category would be useful to denote characters specifically built for the movies, many of whom were never used again (Miss Finch is, I think, currently classified under Sesame Street Characters, but unlike Madame Chairbird, she was never used again. Clueless Morgan was used in Muppets Tonight, but whither Blind Pew? So a good way to deal with them, and it's my fault for being unclear, would be as Danny suggested, a category for movie characters divided by films, even if it does lump humans with Muppets, and then the Human Character and Muppet Character subdivisions. I meant categories for the specific films, which would thus be a good place to fit in those wayward Muppets which only had function within a specific film (or premiered in that film) and weren't even recycled as backdrop. So if that makes sense, in this way, I wouldn't necessarily list Kermit in all the movies, since his movie appearances are all on his page, but I would list Bob Cratchit, Captain Smollett, etc. (and same thing could apply for Sesame even, i.e. Big Bird as Grandfather in that Peter and the Wolf video). It may not be as useful with Muppets from Space (though even, but as highlighted even in all your work on the Character Evolution pages, it might not hurt to have a specific category to include Jacob and Robert Marley, Squire Trelawney, or Tin Thing. Yeah, you might argue that they need a category of their own as personas, but I think a good thing to do would be follow the examples of the Super Grover and other personas; as characters, they'd be under the movie pages, but not as "Muppet Characters" because they're distinct characters only within the world of that film, but not as individual Muppets. --Aleal 23:47, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I think having categories for each film would be great. I don't care if Kermit is in 10 more categories. Let him be in 1,000 for all I care.
As for the Muppet as characters, things such as Tin Thing, or The Scarecrow (Kermit) - they were diffrent puppets and diffrent characters, you could create new articles for them and listing them in the Muppet Wizard of Oz Characters and Muppet Characters (with a see also link on Gonzo's and Kermit's pages. We have both Baby Kermit and Kermit and they are basically the same character. However this could get out of hand, as Piggy would have 9-10 diffrent listings (regular Piggy, Emily Cratchit, Benjamina Gunn, Good Witch of the North, Good Witch of the South, Wicked Witch of the West, Wicked Witch of the East, Baby Piggy (puppet), Baby Piggy (animated), and more.) We don't have an article for "First Mate Piggy" (the character Piggy played in Pigs in Space), we just include that in part of Piggy's article. I think Piggy role as Emily Cratchet could be listed in the Muppet Christmas Carol Characters category as Miss Piggy rather than Emily Cratchit and no one would complain. Even though she "played" Emily the same way Micheal Caine played Scrooge, she's already character. So you have a character playing a character I don't think we need to list the character's characters separately. -- BradFraggle 00:18, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I say bring on the characters. I'd like to see all those Piggys have their own pages, plus Nurse Piggy and Wonder Pig and any other versions you might care to name. We might even make a Miss Piggy category! Right now, Grover has five alter ego pages: Super Grover, Waiter Grover, Marshal Grover, Farmer Grover and Grover Knover. The wiki's big enough; everybody can have a page! -- Danny Toughpigs 00:24, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I think the distinction there might depend on how much there is to say about the character, and when it comes down to it, as with most Wikis, whether users want to create a page. There's five Grover alter-ego pages right now, and I don't mind. But then, there's a lot of history to Super Grover and Grover the Waiter. Same with Piggy, Baby Piggy (puppet) fills a need, and even Benjamina Gunn could be useful in terms of her character and backstory within the film. The fact that stuffed toys of her in this role were made is an added factor for me. By that same stroke, I can see a place for a Mr. Arrow page for Sam the Eagle, but probably not one for his headmaster cameo in Christmas Carol. As for the Witches, even if they were different puppets, I think they're linked closely enough to where one page, maybe just "The Witches of Oz", could be used. (But then, I haven't seen the movie yet, so I don't know how much there is to say about them). But then, that's just how I did it if I were to create the pages. Like Danny said, there's room, so if somebody wants to create a page for Bouncer Beaker from Very Merry Muppet Christmas, why not? This is a fun discussion, and it feels like we're getting a feel for general consensus here. --Andrew, Aleal 00:28, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree that it's essentially up to whoever has the energy and inclination to create the pages. I was the one who set up First Mate Piggy as a redirect to Miss Piggy, but that was months ago, and now I'm feeling like she deserves her own page. I've been surprised by how much there is to say about things that I didn't think there was anything to say about. -- Danny Toughpigs 00:35, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Alright, you sold me on it. I think having the alter-egos would be fine. Just more work, but I think we can handle it. So are we in agreement to set up characters categories for each of the 8 muppet movies? -- BradFraggle 01:15, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Characters by movie, or other production. As for actors, by medium? Muppet Movies Actors, Muppet Specials Actors, and Muppet TV Actors? The Muppet Show and Muppets Tonight already have guest star categories, and if need be, we can do subdivisions of the rest. I do propose we keep Sesame Street folk as Cast, since in this case it's all one entity, even with spinoffs. And as for Creature Shop productions, for now, just keep as is but rename "Creature Shop Actors? --Andrew, Aleal 01:24, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I set up categories for each film. Take a look at the top of Muppet Characters category to see. Could someone look them over and double-check them before we all start going through and adding characters to them. -- BradFraggle 01:50, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Looks great, Brad! Excellent work. Only goof was on Follow That Bird (came out as Follow that Bird). Good thing we heeded your advice before adding to that one. --Aleal 04:22, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

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