Hi, just a reminder to check on how categories are defined for Category:Commercials Characters, it's "Muppet characters who were created for commercials" (although one Creature, King Kong, is included).
So that's why Rowlf the Dog and Baskerville the Hound are in it, but not Kermit or other Sam and Friends and Muppet Show characters who also did commercials (it would overcrowd and defeat the purpose). Of the other pages you added the tag to, under the definition, Conrad Love and Grump don't seem to count, Big V might (commercials and variety show appearances seem to have happened simultaneously, but probably commercials first) and maybe on Limbo (but we know that's not why the character was conceived).
We also haven't really looked at commercials in forever, however, so feel free to bring it up in the forum if you like (apart from changing the category definition, my own gut feeling is a list page would be a better way to track the use of Kermit, Miss Piggy, Big Bird, etc. in commercials or PSAs).
Kermit isn't in the Tales from Muppetland category for a different reason (discussion long ago to not include major Muppet characters in categories for every special or movie they appeared in, which is why he's not in Category:Christmas Toy Characters either; generally the rule has been to limit those categories to new characters who made their debut in them, but Tales from Muppetland included a mix of both and the others aren't usually in dozens of categories to start with, so it works).
Sam and Friends had commercials in them for Esskay's meat, which Kermit and Harry did the diddy for, and a lot of the puppets like Grump and Condrad were either directly in the commercials or the puppet was used. I get the point entirely though.
They're Henson (Bruno's probably easier since he's named). It's mainly lacking performer info (the inspector is voiced by NY actor Len Maxwell; I'm not sure who's voicing Bruno, might be Allen Swift doubling but not certain, and no way to ID puppeteer short of documents) and that usually one-shot commercial characters not used again can be covered on the page for the ads.
Hi, just a tip, be careful when saying "same puppet" unless it's sourced or else clearly the same with no modifications.
The Whatnot you showed for Muppets On Wheels is definitely similar in shape, but difference in coloring, the ears, and the fact that to the best of our knowledge nobody actually reworked the actual Scooter puppet (and also the same pattern pops up elsewhere during that period, and later) means it doesn't really fit as puppet recycling. They may have used the basic character design to inspire the pattern, but we can't be sure of that either without confirmation. (If you're unsure or wondering if character A became Character B, feel free to ask on the forum first.)
They only used the pattern twice then, to my knowledge, and the color could actually be lighting, since it was very bright out when they shot Muppets on Wheel's rollercoaster section. And let's not forget Scooter's Whatnot origins. But I understand completely!
Compare the actual ears, though, and other shape stuff (and the color is more than iighting). It's clear they didn't take an existing Scooter puppet and just change the eyes. Basically, similarities are there, but it's a stretch to say it's the same puppet (compared to either direct reuses, like redressed members of Geri and the Atrics, or even Snookie Blyer identifiably having the same body and wardrobe as the Newsman).
Aleal wrote: Compare the actual ears, though, and other shape stuff (and the color is more than iighting). It's clear they didn't take an existing Scooter puppet and just change the eyes. Basically, similarities are there, but it's a stretch to say it's the same puppet (compared to either direct reuses, like redressed members of Geri and the Atrics, or even Snookie Blyer identifiably having the same body and wardrobe as the Newsman).
All I know is making Puppets cost money, so reusing and recycling is a thing. Same thing happens with the Japanese company Tsuburaya Productions, reusing monster suits to cut cost. The biggest difference I can see though is the visible wrinkles in the neck when Bill moves the puppet a certain way. But you can tell it's 'flat head scooter' from the late 80's, especially the size of the puppet's head compared to Kermit's.
If you want to bring it up in the forums, feel free! If there's consensus on things (or someone else can find an actual source), that's always different.
But while we know they recycle, you really need to make your case for saying they did indeed take an actual Scooter puppet, without a source (as opposed to "similar pattern" or other wording which requires less proof; similarities can be more readily apparent than "I know they took the eyes off and changed it even if it looks different otherwise to other people"). That's the area we try to avoid. Money saving isn't really enough reason by itself to argue that it isn't another puppet being reused, and neck wrinkles aren't really very effective (you'd have to somehow prove that only that Scooter puppet could wrinkle like that; of course if you could contact Barretta or anyone involved and confirm it, that's different, as always.
It basically gets into way too subjective areas (for the same reason, we long ago voted not to use "So and so puppeteered because it looks like their movement to me" identifications as opposed to credits, behind the scene images, or widely recognizable voice tracks). We rely on sources, as you know, and basically those kinds of things, while they may in fact be correct sometimes, aren't actually sources, just perceptions or opinions.
Also, the "Non-Henson" credit heading is a holdover from the early days of the wiki (same goes for things like presskit bios). Now, any additional work that's really relevant or worth pointing out, we do in the main body.
You hit on some of the pages (Noel MacNeal and Carmen Osbahr) that haven't been redone yet, but the goal isn't to add more if they're still there or start new sections if there aren't. Instead, look for a space in the main biographical text where you can briefly work in those shows (and yeah, while we track any kind of Muppet characters, it's better for this to just list the principal roles, not bit players or extras, which applies to all the Puzzle Piece "police" characters.) Thanks!