Hey, thanks for starting that! I think your break down is clearer than mine could have been, highlighting the main points of contention/confusion in a way so we can all know how to proceed. Even with my own preferences, my biggest concern is consistency, so as long as everyone agrees and has the same understanding, I'm fairly flexible. Right now almost everyone (including myself) is just going by how they *think* a category should work.
Good evening Jbrangwynne! I am here on behalf of a friend user Tobi.miltenberger who has been recently blocked from editing on this wiki. He was blocked by Scarecrow for all eternity, a block which I believe to be somewhat unfair, does a keen editor like him deserve a block? He is a responsible editor, he's even a Admin on the Monstermoviepedia wiki!
I have contacted Scarecrow several times regarding lifting the block but I have had no reply. He may of made a mistake but Tobi.miltenberger is an all round good bloke. I believe he has learned from his mistakes and should have his block removed. I ask you to please consider removing his block!
Hill, we will not be lifting the block on Tobi. I get the impression he is hounding you to go to bat for him here, and I'm sorry if that's the case. Tobi is not welcome to edit here. Thanks for understanding.
Dear Scarecrow, Tobi did make mistakes no doubt about it. You are a Admin, simply doing your job. Tobi is fairly new to wikia a keen and loyal editor, he has never made any mistakes except just once. Myself and others believe he is sorry and remorseful over this unfortunate misunderstanding, I again ask sir please just consider lifting his block. Its horrible to be blocked, I was several times on a few wiki's.
Hey, actually, long ago when we started "The Muppets" category, we discussed it and decided not to include characters from the animated or print Muppet Babies (since really the puppet versions are the "canon," the rest was a spin-off). This was also because oddly the category wasn't being applied to the main Muppet Babies characters (you note it was just three pages that had the tag recently added by Julian) but things like Chief Inspector of Scotland Yard. So for that reason (just like we don't double cat Sesame Street and Fraggle characters who appeared in the specials or the wedding finale), we decided it would be confusing to suddenly merge every Muppet Babies character in The Muppets characters.
But of course that was years ago, so we could bring it up again (personally, I think it makes sense to just categorize the Muppet Babies (puppets) page, which is already included, in the same way we don't count the animated Little Muppet Monsters characters or counterparts, just the puppet versions.)
Thanks for the recap, Andrew. I hadn't seen that discussion, and yeah, it does make more sense to just have the puppet versions in that category.
I have a minor question while we're on the subject (maybe we'll go in deeper if we open up a group discussion). Recently, Ant has been adding Muppet/Sesame Street character categories to hoards of pages already categorized under Illustrated Characters, Unseen Characters, Muppet Bands and Family Groups. My main concern is with group pages with linkable characters that are already categorized (e.g. The Cratchit Family), and characters that have no significance in a production (Kermit's Dad). Would either of those count?
Yeah, we had the same discussion re Muppet Bands (which for a long time we kept out of Muppet Characters periods, for a couple of reasons: one, most were aggregations of individual characters, and two, Danny's reasoning that a lot of them had long names).
Things like the Cratchit Family don't count, since the individual characters who are relevant (Belinda Cratchit, Betina Cratchit, Peter Cratchit) are in the category already, and Bob Cratchit or, for another example, Benjamina Gunn don't count as "Muppet Characters" or "The Muppets Characters" either (since they were just roles). "Family Groups" are basically like list pages, really. Basically, if a group *would* qualify for its own "Muppet Characters" page (as in puppets who only appeared collectively, not tracking someone's relatives or a species), then it could be counted, but not otherwise.
I found the discussion starting point here, but I know some of it was ironed out with Wendy and so on over user pages or as cases came up, and it seems more was left really up in the air than I remembered. We could always re-open it, but...
I do know Wendy and I discussed Unseen Characters as not counting either (anymore than we were counting, say, Doc Hopper or Nicky Holiday; so Joe Bravo was fine in "Muppet Show Characters" but it didn't make sense to add "The Muppets" to him). We discussed the possibility of making an exception for say Bernie or Gags Beasley, who span many projects and are more of a consistent part of the "universe," but then just forgot about it. For someone like "Dad the Frog," it's the sort of fun page we like to include for thoroughness, but I think it would make sense not to count unless (like Kermit's Mom) he ever actually shows up beyond a print reference. Although Baron Petri von Honeydew is in "The Muppets" cat, but at least there it's actually a full personality and appearance, not just anecdotes in Kermit's book.
For illustrated characters, we hadn't been counting, for example, characters from the comics or most of the books as Category:The Muppets Characters (and it definitely wouldn't apply to, say, Muppet Kids) but a few (which for awhile were as "Muppet Show Characters," which was misleading; Commander Melville) are in. I think we just never really worked that out, but the main purpose of "The Muppets" category was, during debates and once Disney gradually began doing more projects again, to classify those who clearly belonged to the same universe and were most likely to crop up in another project (so we excluded the pre-Muppet Show characters unless they resurfaced, and Muppet Babies is its own universe anyway, with personalities, back story and so on contradicted by whatever Disney decides is the current back story; they've gone back to the "Miss Piggy had mother issues" approach in interviews and publicity, rather than "she was raised by a kindly caregiver in striped green socks.")
So illustrations are a little tricky, and mostly most of us just didn't care enough to try to combine them all (with the Sesame Street category, we've counted them for a long time, and with Muppet Babies, a few comics or storybook characters were in there, so it was just omission). I think it would be worth bringing up on the forum. It makes more sense than doing so with unseen characters or Dorcas to decide to include all characters from books/comics (with the logical limit, I think, that the books be clearly tied to The Muppet Show, not alternative worlds/presentations like Muppet Kids etc., or some of those odd "Kermit's Tales" animals with no connection beyond Kermit supposedly narrating or "presenting" them), but it would be a major clean-up project to comb through the parent categories and tag.
Another possibility would be to make a subcat just for the Muppets illustrated characters. Outside of defining the limits, unlike the Sesame illustrated characters, there aren't really any recurring figures and no cross-over. Relatives that began in books sometimes later popped up on Sesame Street, and even those that haven't, there are many recurring book-only characters (from Malcolm Monster to Flossie). That doesn't apply to the Muppets projects beyond, say, specific Langridge arcs, but it may be immaterial anyway. So, does this actually answer who goes where? Third base.
Yup, that covers a lot of what I had been thinking. As been said, creating a group discussion on categories would be beneficial; just so everyone's on the same page, but perhaps also setting a formal policy (or -ies) in stone. I have a few other things I can bring up once we start a new thread. Whether it's decided to subcat or do clean-up, I'd be fine helping out with that.
We don't provide deep coverage for celebrities beyond some brief details. This includes mentioning their birth and death years, but not the dates. Wikipedia goes deeper though, so you're welcome to expand his article there. Thanks!
I'm sorry about editing the Anything Muppets that Martin Robinson has done over the years. I am doing a special project all about his life to the sick kids at a children's hospital. What else can I do to make this project so wonderful
No harm done. My edits were just a matter of organizing, similar to what Andrew said. In my mind, it's better to have the "Anything Muppets" cap at the end rather than a dozen "Purple kid from a sketch" entries on the page. Sorry if I hurt you're feelings at all.
Feel free to continue adding characters you find to his page. For example, it looks like his Elmo's World characters (like Bulldozer) aren't listed yet, so you can go ahead and get a jump on that. Let me know if you have any trouble. Anyway, it's lovely to hear that you're doing a project dedicated to Marty. Best of luck. ;)
I'm not sure, as I didn't originally add that to the page. He doesn't have any speaking roles in the movie, so he was likely doing a lot of assistant work (meaning right-handing, or even puppeteering another person's character to help fill out the Muppet cast in a scene).
Actually, Martin Robinson did have a minor speaking role in The Muppets Take Manhattan, as one of the bears (the one who says, "I'm up! I'm up! Is it spring??" after Fozzie announces he's going to New York).
Hi, sorry for the late reply. The sequence with Snufertiti plays like a flashback, so she's supposed to be seperate from Snuffy. Also, I believe that is Marty as Hans. You can check out this video and judge. Hope that helps ;)
I hope that Mr. Robinson had a wonderful Wubbulous birthday. Whlie he was performing Monty, He did the exact same voices for Riff the Cat, Clef the father, and my all time favorite character, The Cat in the Hat. In honor of Marty's birthday, I got to watch my favorite episode of "The Wubbulous World of Dr. Seuss", The Cat in the Hat's Big Birthday Surprise" which I happen to love. I also like to watch it on my birthday and Dr. Seuss's birthday too
Where did you capture the "Good Times" Title card from? And there was one song in that episode that I want to know the lyrics to. "Take Time to Smell the Cheese" was in that episode, but that isn't the song that I am talking about, but rather it is a song called "The Best Time I Have is With You". If you know the lyrics to The Best Time is With You, please tell me. Thank you!
Hey, Jon! I saw where you said that Doin' the Pigeon is different on the Joe Raposo tribute album compared to Bert's Blockbusters. How is it different? We should probably put it on the song's page, so people know about different versions.
That's weird. I wonder why they wasted time remixing it, when it would have been cheaper to just pull the master tape out and use it again. The funny thing is that I have all of those, but I've never compared them to each other. Although, actually, are you just going by those downloads, or do you have any of those? I've heard from different people that sometimes downloads don't match what a real CD of the same album sounds like. If I ever got to go into the vaults, I would love to see which songs have true stereo masters, and which ones don't. When they recorded a song as a record first, like Rubber Duckie, we know that the record is true stereo, even though they mixed it to mono for broadcast. But I've always wondered at what point they started recording the show in stereo. I also wondered if they recorded backing tracks in stereo for the show, knowing that they were going to later release it on a record. Anyway, now that I've thoroughly bored you, thanks for bringing that up! I'll figure out a way to make notes about that on the relevant pages.