Oh, that's good. Because I thought it had something to do with the page "Sesame Street Game Shows". I found the Newlywed Fairytale Game sketch, and I put a link for Youtube from it. What was wrong with that?
Since this 2012 discussion, we've mostly refrained from adding unofficial video links (ergo, videos that aren't from the Sesame Street YouTube channel or the like), partly because of the frequency of videos that are deleted on YouTube and elsewhere.
Hey, Jon. I liked that awhile ago, you made The Word of the Day page into a table and you included the ones from season 44 which had yet to air at the time. Do you think you could add a section for season 45? We can add more detail to them when we actually see them.
Hey, thanks for starting that! I think your break down is clearer than mine could have been, highlighting the main points of contention/confusion in a way so we can all know how to proceed. Even with my own preferences, my biggest concern is consistency, so as long as everyone agrees and has the same understanding, I'm fairly flexible. Right now almost everyone (including myself) is just going by how they *think* a category should work.
Hey, actually, long ago when we started "The Muppets" category, we discussed it and decided not to include characters from the animated or print Muppet Babies (since really the puppet versions are the "canon," the rest was a spin-off). This was also because oddly the category wasn't being applied to the main Muppet Babies characters (you note it was just three pages that had the tag recently added by Julian) but things like Chief Inspector of Scotland Yard. So for that reason (just like we don't double cat Sesame Street and Fraggle characters who appeared in the specials or the wedding finale), we decided it would be confusing to suddenly merge every Muppet Babies character in The Muppets characters.
But of course that was years ago, so we could bring it up again (personally, I think it makes sense to just categorize the Muppet Babies (puppets) page, which is already included, in the same way we don't count the animated Little Muppet Monsters characters or counterparts, just the puppet versions.)
Thanks for the recap, Andrew. I hadn't seen that discussion, and yeah, it does make more sense to just have the puppet versions in that category.
I have a minor question while we're on the subject (maybe we'll go in deeper if we open up a group discussion). Recently, Ant has been adding Muppet/Sesame Street character categories to hoards of pages already categorized under Illustrated Characters, Unseen Characters, Muppet Bands and Family Groups. My main concern is with group pages with linkable characters that are already categorized (e.g. The Cratchit Family), and characters that have no significance in a production (Kermit's Dad). Would either of those count?
Yeah, we had the same discussion re Muppet Bands (which for a long time we kept out of Muppet Characters periods, for a couple of reasons: one, most were aggregations of individual characters, and two, Danny's reasoning that a lot of them had long names).
Things like the Cratchit Family don't count, since the individual characters who are relevant (Belinda Cratchit, Betina Cratchit, Peter Cratchit) are in the category already, and Bob Cratchit or, for another example, Benjamina Gunn don't count as "Muppet Characters" or "The Muppets Characters" either (since they were just roles). "Family Groups" are basically like list pages, really. Basically, if a group *would* qualify for its own "Muppet Characters" page (as in puppets who only appeared collectively, not tracking someone's relatives or a species), then it could be counted, but not otherwise.
I found the discussion starting point here, but I know some of it was ironed out with Wendy and so on over user pages or as cases came up, and it seems more was left really up in the air than I remembered. We could always re-open it, but...
I do know Wendy and I discussed Unseen Characters as not counting either (anymore than we were counting, say, Doc Hopper or Nicky Holiday; so Joe Bravo was fine in "Muppet Show Characters" but it didn't make sense to add "The Muppets" to him). We discussed the possibility of making an exception for say Bernie or Gags Beasley, who span many projects and are more of a consistent part of the "universe," but then just forgot about it. For someone like "Dad the Frog," it's the sort of fun page we like to include for thoroughness, but I think it would make sense not to count unless (like Kermit's Mom) he ever actually shows up beyond a print reference. Although Baron Petri von Honeydew is in "The Muppets" cat, but at least there it's actually a full personality and appearance, not just anecdotes in Kermit's book.
For illustrated characters, we hadn't been counting, for example, characters from the comics or most of the books as Category:The Muppets Characters (and it definitely wouldn't apply to, say, Muppet Kids) but a few (which for awhile were as "Muppet Show Characters," which was misleading; Commander Melville) are in. I think we just never really worked that out, but the main purpose of "The Muppets" category was, during debates and once Disney gradually began doing more projects again, to classify those who clearly belonged to the same universe and were most likely to crop up in another project (so we excluded the pre-Muppet Show characters unless they resurfaced, and Muppet Babies is its own universe anyway, with personalities, back story and so on contradicted by whatever Disney decides is the current back story; they've gone back to the "Miss Piggy had mother issues" approach in interviews and publicity, rather than "she was raised by a kindly caregiver in striped green socks.")
So illustrations are a little tricky, and mostly most of us just didn't care enough to try to combine them all (with the Sesame Street category, we've counted them for a long time, and with Muppet Babies, a few comics or storybook characters were in there, so it was just omission). I think it would be worth bringing up on the forum. It makes more sense than doing so with unseen characters or Dorcas to decide to include all characters from books/comics (with the logical limit, I think, that the books be clearly tied to The Muppet Show, not alternative worlds/presentations like Muppet Kids etc., or some of those odd "Kermit's Tales" animals with no connection beyond Kermit supposedly narrating or "presenting" them), but it would be a major clean-up project to comb through the parent categories and tag.
Another possibility would be to make a subcat just for the Muppets illustrated characters. Outside of defining the limits, unlike the Sesame illustrated characters, there aren't really any recurring figures and no cross-over. Relatives that began in books sometimes later popped up on Sesame Street, and even those that haven't, there are many recurring book-only characters (from Malcolm Monster to Flossie). That doesn't apply to the Muppets projects beyond, say, specific Langridge arcs, but it may be immaterial anyway. So, does this actually answer who goes where? Third base.
Yup, that covers a lot of what I had been thinking. As been said, creating a group discussion on categories would be beneficial; just so everyone's on the same page, but perhaps also setting a formal policy (or -ies) in stone. I have a few other things I can bring up once we start a new thread. Whether it's decided to subcat or do clean-up, I'd be fine helping out with that.