Hi, Anthony! We really appreciate all of your help. But frankly, it is becoming a little frustrating that you're *still* not citing sources!
Your edit on The Big Bad Wolf for example. One can argue whether it really counts as the same character (rather than Brody, as named in the sketch), since it's neither of the main Big Bad Wolf puppets (I'd alter the David Rudman too, in a section on "Other wolves" or something). But that's nitpicky. The big issue is you still aren't citing in articles. When did Peter Linz tell you this? We need a date, we need a proper citation format. Frankly, we may have to temporarily block you if you can't do this. If you need help, you can ask us, or try and we'll clean it up.
There's also your issues in changing performer categorization; I'm glad you noted your doubts in the edit summary, but if it's unclear, then *don't change it*. But the citation is the main thing, and by now we've left more than a dozen messages dealing with citation issues. Your enthusiasm and willingness to reach out to performers is appreciated. But it doesn't do us any good if it's not properly cited. We still have to go through your history, find every edit summary where you mentioned an e-mail or "someone told me" and add a cite tag or ask you individually to specify. That's a lot of work.
So please, next time, if you don't know how to cite it, *ask* us, make an attempt *in the article*, or bring it up on the talk page. Otherwise, you will be blocked.
Thanks! A direct link, when it's a public Facebook (like a forum) is best in cases like this. Like I said, if you're having trouble adding the citation to the text, and don't have time to ask an admin for formatting, you can do exactly what you did now and just park the info on the talk page. We can always work around reformatting or integrating information... *if* it's all there to begin with.
There's some other good info there too! You really are a valued contributor, I just needed to let you know that citation is something we really take seriously, so from now on, you need to include in-text citations, ask someone, or just park it on the talk page or forum conversation (you've seen how often we've done that under "Info parking" headings). Thanks again! I'll gradually dig up some of the others that need citation and ask you to check on those.
Hi, Anthony! At this point, it's hard to tell whether you're adding something based on actual viewing, or whether you left out the sources again. What's the source for your change to Mr. Johnson? In the actual episode, is Martin P. Robinson doing the voice? If not, if you contacted him or he mentioned it on his blog, you really need to cite it (and at this point, you *really* need to do so on the page, not just in the summary). If it's a video, you need to tell us at what time in the video (10 minutes in, 15, whatever) has the relevant quote or source.
I gave you all the formats and info in previous messages on your wall (the video interview format would be identical to what you'd use for e-mail or Facebook conversations, just no URl, include the date, and the person you spoke to and your name; if it's from a blog, just cite that, with date, and always add <references /> at the bottom below a "Sources heading, if there isn't one already). If you still need help, don't hesitate to ask. Thanks
Ah, Enrique confirmed it vocally, so never mind. It might not hurt to clarify in your edit summary though (when it's not something in screen credits or from an easily accessible DVD), at least until we're sure you're citing everything, just so we know. Thanks!
Hi, Anthony! I am glad you cite sources in your edit summary, but you really do need to cite them in text as well.
Again, if format is a problem, look at Muppet Wiki:Citations. For video, in general, while we still have a YouTube template (here), it's not used as much anymore and can be trickier. So you can just use this format:
[http://wwww.whatevervideolinkurl.what Interview with] So and So. Event [if specified]. Day, Month, Year</ref> Tailor it however is appropriate (if it's not YouTube but embedded video on a website like Disney or a movie site, use the name of the website). Many times it will be upload date, other times the video will note specifically, like the Archive of American Television interviews, that it was conducted in 2006 or whatever, even if they waited until 2010 to first upload it, so you use that date. I'll try to fix Paul McGinnis, but it always requires someone else to first watch the video, check the exact claim for accuracy, and then do the citation. So it would help us if you can try to do it yourself, but also don't be afraid to make a mistake or ask for help. (I still haven't made that big community reminder on citations, since as I've said, it's not just you). Thanks!<ac_metadata title="Citations and videos"> </ac_metadata>
Hi! I'll leave the edit on Jerry Nelson for now (not sure what other editors will think, though, so they may remove it) but it still looks really awkward. Citing a specific song and named sketch works, but by episode (with no specifics or details), that's awkward. We already note that his performances will appear through this season. It would be better, if you want to track the episodes, to do so on your own page or a talk page first. *Then*, once the season has aired and we know how many appearances we're talking about (and how many consecutive episodes; if he's heard in episodes 4401-4412 say, that would look better, or note a total number if it's just as the Count, and so on; possibly even need to work it in as footnotes or something), we can decide how best to incorporate that information into the page. Right now, it just looks like something that will lead to episode after episode following and really lead to a run-on and make it horribly awkward. Personally, I'd actually feel better if you noted it on the episode pages (it's relevant enough I think to be worth noting if it's new material, and right now nothing on Episode 4401 makes it at all clear where the Count appeared, if it was street story, or what.)
Hi, Anthony! I saw your note on Billy Barkhurst about listening to the CD. Were you talking about the Can't Stop Singing cast album? If so, it would be great if you could help to create a page for it. I can help you with it, so you wouldn't have to do everything yourself.
Hi. Please refrain from adding video releases for sketches until someone can take the time to work with you on how to add them. I've reverted them for now and will try to look at them again later this week.
His source was a Muppet Central post here. Jonathan found it. The user, someone called DannyRRW, says they read it in the program and typed the name. That's all the evidence we have. So we're not really citing the program right now, we're citing what someone else who we don't know says they saw in the program. So that's a bit of an issue.
Yeah. I'd really like to go back to the cite tag *until* we find an actual program, then move on from there. Or take it out entirely and park. Right now, if a reader sees this, they'll either assume at least *one* editor here actually transcribed the information from a program. If we leave it to the cite tag, it's still unclear. And there's no way we can cite Muppet Central for this. Our rules on sources on Muppet Wiki:Policies and Guidelines don't include the coding but *are* pretty clear as far as what's acceptable (we've only used Muppet Central when it's an actual performer or writer answering and it's fairly easily proved that it is them; often these are done as sort of open Q&As in contrast to the Toughpigs full interviews with the writers). This fails the test, so right now we're just assuming they're right. It's an odd bit of info to make up, sure. But we have no way of proving it true (and we know the internet *is* full of odd people making bizarrely untrue claims). That's the whole point of our sourcing policy, so Muppet Wiki *doesn't* fall into that trap.
I took out all references. I have 0% confidence in this information.
And Art, I know you said you have a learning disability, and I appreciate you being upfront with us, but I'm not feeling like we're communicating well. To the extent that you appear to have been misleading.
No, Michael, if it were a costumed performer we wouldn't bother at all. (They are often credited but either as an insert or only in a list seen when you go to the show; since the suit performers will change, but they can use the same program otherwise). The question is about the *voice*. And the point right now is that we don't have the program for the show in question period.
Hi! We have no credits on Can't Stop Singing. What's the source for Billy Barkhurst as Ernie's voice instead of Whitmire? Also, if you're going to change for that kind of reason, you need to add it to the page. Also also, don't just assume because you see a picture of a performer with a puppet that they actually spoke (I'm going to try to hunt down the episode you mentioned for David Stephens since I'm not so sure on that) and remember any and all "behind the scenes" footage doesn't count. It has to actually be a performance with voice in an actual as-aired production.
Chiming in to say that I was curious to dig up some info on Billy Barkhurst voicing Ernie, and could only find a Muppet Central forum comment based on a program, and a clip of dialogue from the show (skim to 04:42). At the very least, the latter definitely proves that it wasn't Steve Whitmire.
Aha, thanks, Jonathan. It would be nice if we could actually get a scan of the program. Even so, Barkhurst hasn't puppeteered and voiced Ernie yet. So it would be a situation akin to Don Reardon or Adam Hunt, we'd double categorize (I clarified this a bit earlier on Talk:Christopher Reeve). It may seem finicky but I'd much rather double categorize for someone who did background or assistant puppeteering and then, in a different project or episode, dubbed or pre-recorded a voice; the opposite implies there's a character out there which the person both puppeteered and voiced.
Sorry. I should have added the info to the article. But after listening to the clip Jon found and the Christmas stage show, I found that Ernie sounds the same in both. So I'm gonna add the info right now.
Ant, after you said you would add sources for the information you were asked about, you added it back to several articles without any sources. YOU MUST PROVIDE SOURCES IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO CONTINUE EDITING HERE.
That's confusing because several wiki members have had conversations with you about it where you've been clear that you've understood about showing sources.
What is it that's giving you trouble?
I know that I'm supposed to put the ref thing at the start and end of my sources but, how specific should I be and how long should I make it? I have a learning disability, so please have patience with me.
Also, as I've explained to you before in previous posts, please don't add info based on voice assumptions. You're free to state your claims on a talk page or forum here so other people can weigh in, but do not add info to pages based only on guesswork.
This is the sort of issue that we created Name That Voice for. The rules and issues we're discussing as far as the voice are all there. The original intent was to use it similarly to Muppet Wiki:Name That Puppet but nobody has actually bothered to start such questions there, they still either just guess or use private discussions and so on, so it's harder sometimes to prove where a consensus came from. I'd suggest moving the relevant links and such there, link to the discussion on forums (or directly ask some key admins or users who haven't contributed to this conversation yet).
Then wait a certain amount of time for a consensus. Two is a good start but I'd say at *least* three people for something like this, since it's based on voice only *and* the voice of someone we're not familiar with. As in fact it says on "Name That Voice" though, demos are very useful and often better in this case than "This Ernie imitation is very similar to this Ernie imitation" (which, even if they're not the same person, wouldn't be shocking).
The three year at least gap in time is one thing which has me wondering, but right now, with no way to directly contact Billy Barkhurst, this is the best we can do. We haven't even really fully sourced Can't Stop Singing. We're trusting the person who posted the info to Muppets Central but nobody here has seen the program booklet, so we still should make an effort to find and scan one; we're basically citing as a source something none of us has seen but which sounds plausible, since it doesn't seem like the kind of attribution someone would just pluck out of thin air, but we still really need to double check it.
Until then, Anthony, definitely please *stop* reverting any changes admins make or re-adding, and if you feel it should be re-added (in fact, given current issues, I'd suggest you do that on everything for now), if you're confused as to why something has been removed or don't fully comprehend the edit summary, please ask that user first or else start a discussion on the talk page or forum page for the specific article. It would make it easier for everyone and also easier to track discussions and whatever decision is reached if it's clearly in a place connected to the article and not just user walls. (When I have time, soon I hope, I'll be starting a huge community-wide discussion and reminder on sourcing, since you're not the only user who's having trouble, there are some questions to be settled, and some basic reminders on using tags or even heading "Sources" instead of "References," which we use for something else here). Thanks for your cooperation while we work on clarifying this for everyone!
Hi, Anthony! Where'd you find a copy of 3, 2, 1 Let's Go or was a segment on a DVD? I don't doubt you're right, you have a good ear most of the time, but it's always good to check, and I'm just plain curious to see this.
Thanks! I'll see if I can get ahold of a copy. I wonder if they include any other credits for that portion. (Probably done by Magnetic Dreams but I'd want to confirm that first). I'll have a bunch of credits to add to Abby's Flying Fairy School soon (the Kinect game "season pass" has access to just about all the aired installments to date, with closing credits as used for international broadcasts where it's a stand alone show).
Hi, Anthony. Please stop taking off cite tags. We need to cite our sources, even if it was told to someone. We're talking to Garrett about it (the "told to a friend" bit is a bit too vague) and we'll start a community wide discussion. But one of the things we're most proud of is the fact that we're an encyclopedia and cover things in a thoroughly researched and sourced manner. So we have to cite this info (and we'll be discussing formats and the accepted encyclopedic way of doing so) or else take it out. There's no middle ground there.
Understandable. Basically, if you want to do some clean up there, either *add* the citation if known, find the DVD or book or whatever to double check, or if it's clear by now that it's either untrue or can't be confirmed or proven (from something from four years ago), just take it out (if it's useful info, park on the talk page in case it just may still require further research, but usually it's a "We have no idea where this came from and it sounds a lot like a fan's fantasy" stuff, or for example I took something out on Doctor Who that was basically a personal conclusion about an alleged reference to Muppets Take Manhattan, and the person claimed Steven Moffat, whose name they misspelled, said so in many interviews; Googling showed not one such instance).
Some of the stuff like talkshow appearances are likely true so we don't want to take out, but we don't have video or picture evidence, especially of the air dates, and that sort of information has never been well preserved, so we're waiting for someone to find, say, their tape or a TV Guide listing of talk show guests of the week (this stuff was, unless an unannounced cameo, typically listed at the time, but places like IMDb and so on don't really track it and nobody really bothers to create thorough talk show episode guides). So some of those will still be longterm.