Heya! A couple years ago, I proposed making articles for each minor movie and TV mentions. The conversation kinda got away from me, and aside from some needed clean-up, we kinda forgot about it. Perhaps partially because I was trying to take on too much at once.
So, ignoring anything else for now, what do you think about splitting out titles just from Minor Movie Mentions if there is either a) any visual reference and/or b) any connections worth noting?
That would let us do pages for Death to Smoochy and Hope Floats, but leave behind stuff of lesser consequence like Mr. Jealousy and The Smokers.
It's easier to start with just movies, true. I'm definitely in favor of splitting out visual mentions (a few existing solo pages are pretty comparable anyway).
Not so sure on connections alone. Death to Smoochy has two verbals (and some fact checking) and ties into the theme, a satire on children's TV, so I'd say it works as a stand-alone page. But for example, I just found a throwaway reference in 2003's The Singing Detective: Robert Downey Jr. mumbling "Muppets and puppets" in a litany when trying to think of boring things. Just as many cast connections but it would make a pretty weak page, I think, as would a couple of the ones already there no matter who's in it.
Also, the Hope Floats entry makes me happy in general. Awww, that's cute.
I can work with that. I think the fact that RDJ is a connection for The Singing Detective (and that he's the one saying it) makes it more interesting. But I'll start weeding out the visuals first and see where we can go from there.
Weinachts Gesichten cd, did mention the two.. Grover is Helping Nicolaus and the Weinachtsman is mentioned seperatly.
We can ask Julian for the reason why Nicolaus never visits the street perhaps... He works there. ;)
That's in the track titles. But have you heard the actual CD to confirm they're treated individually, and how?
There's probably no real reason, since outside of Sesamstraat most of the co-productions don't have holiday visits, and most of the "Nikolaus" text was copied directly from Sinterklaas. So there wasn't enough info to justify an individual page, not yet anyway.
Hi Andrew, i asked Scott but he refered top you. I noticed a lot of differences with the portuguees wiki about rua sesamo actors and the muppet wiki. Poupas and Tita both have other actor names writen there. https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rua_S%C3%A9samo Also on other fan sites they namely mention the pt wiki names.
Andrew, I've been meaning to ask you about something. In the past, I've observed from some comments of yours that you seem to be fairly good at identifying voice actors. Well, a few voice actors who have pages on this Wiki (primarily Carl Banas, Colin Borgonon, Ron Haddrick, and Phillip Hinton), the question is, would you know their voices anywhere? Let me know, and then I'll explain why I ask.
If I did, for purposes of connections, I'd ID them. I can pick out Banas in some contexts, but the others, as far as voices, I just know the names in the credits (with Haddrick, I might be able to find enough radio samples to form a comparison, but that's all).
I assume you're thinking of Jules Verne connections. With the Verne episodes on FESTIVAL OF FAMILY CLASSICS, the show only credited the voices for all episodes, not individually; Banas was the opening announcer, and possibly in those episodes, but I'd have to listen to them closely and even then might not be able to pick him out, and as I said, he may not have been in those (they had a stock company of eight male voice actors and four female, one of whom was Billie Mae Richards, the easiest to spot since she was Rudolph and tended to do the lead kid roles, male or female). It would require a lot of comparison to CBC radio and be pretty tricky (and not the most fun either; the sort of thing best attempted as a side to another project, and it doesn't coincide with anything I'm currently researching).
You pretty much hit the nail on the head regarding what I was getting at. Though, I have no idea how you figured in on 'Festival of Family Classics". But as far as how, the credits were structured, you haven't told me anything I didn't already know. Having used to own a few on VHS, I observed how they listed the entire series cast and not who voiced which character (seriously, why did they have to do it that way?) Contacting Rankin/Bass didn't work either except regarding the announcer (strange, they told me it was Bernard Cowan). Actually, Jules Verne alone wasn't the reason why I was asking. I also wanted to see who certain actors voiced in other animated versions of classic literature. You knew where I was going with Banas, but the other three are primarily from the Australian studio Burbank Films. (Though,in Haddrick's case, there's also the Hanna-Barbera version of "20,000 Leagues). I've been trying to contact them via Facebook or company, but so far, I haven't gotten anywhere. Now, I realize that you've got other research on your plate, and I certainly don't want to be a nuisance, but suppose just once a month I sent you a private message via email, with a youtube link to something with either Banas or Haddrick, and you could take a shot at it? Would that be too much of a hassle?
I figured because it's the only Verne related project I knew Banas was in (and I've noticed your edits to the page). I'm not sure who at "Rankin/Bass" you contacted since they haven't existed as a company in years; if the Enchanted World website, Rick Goldschmidt in his book Ided it as Banas, but he may have later found out otherwise. As I said, I don't have a huge reference for Banas, although you can hear him as Mr. Big on MATH PATROL, which I loved as a kid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6SGtNLDotk
Burbank as an outfit doesn't exist anymore either. If it's a specific short clip, I could try, but it's not worth trying to get through a half hour or hour special with no basis of comparison (when Voicechasers is finished revamping some tech stuff, I may feel like watching my way through The Raccoons, where Banas played multiple roles with individual episode credit, so then it might be feasible to check, but like I said, that's a time consuming project and even then I can't guarantee). These aren't cases where I'm already familiar with the voice from years of listening and study and research, or exposure to mountains of their radio shows as reference (to me, these are mostly just names, especially with the Australians).
"Enchanted World..." was what I checked out, and Rick Goldschmidt was the one I contacted. Perhaps he did find out he was incorrect about the announcer being Banas. And yes, I never got anywhere with Burbank. I'll tell you what, Andrew. You say you'd be willing to check out a short clip? Well, I've got one. You have my word I won't make a habit of this, but I'm just going to send you part 1 of "20,000 Leagues". It's barely ten minutes, and in that short time, all the characters in it have appeared. So just give it a listen and tell me if any of them sound at all like Banas to you. Even if you can't say definitively, a guess will at least feel like a step in the right direction. Like I said, I won't keep sending you more and more clips, but since this one was uploaded in parts, and since we meet all the characters in the first part, I'm sure this shouldn't be too much of an inconvenience. So here you go. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJKSkN-zthU
Problem is, as I said, I can't really judge without a basis of comparison. So I'll have to bookmark it until I find other material Banas was in (Raccoons or radio shows, or might check YouTube for the Shamus Culhane "Noah's Ark" specials, where Banas voiced the lion; nobody in there really sounds like his Sweetums to me). That's how it's done, comparing with known roles and known voice range/texture in general. So I can't guess at all right now, it would be done blindly, and that's pointless. (If you wanted help IDing Vic Perrin or Hal Smith or Don Messick etc., I could tell just by viewing, but as I said above more than once, that's not the case here.)
I might be able to get back to you on it in the future, but definitely not now.
Very well. I only tried because you were a big fan of a show Banas was in, so I thought that might be helpful. But, okay. We'll put the idea on hold for now.
On another note, those other actors you mentioned. We have a page for Hal Smith, but what of the other two? Are either of them known to have participated in any Muppet projects? Because if so, we should do pages for them as well.
No, just examples of actors where no further research is required (and there's a lot of those, just not so much from sixties/seventies Canadians or Australia), they just did Hanna-Barbera and the like (and Perrin was a radio staple, so I tend to hear him at least once a week). If you wanted to send me a list of names or shows from the US, I could at least sound off on which ones I can check easily, so feel free to send me a private e-mail.
If you'll note when I mentioned Raccoons, I said when I got around to that project; right now Voicechasers is frozen for new entries (I'm a lead contributor there) so it's not worth having to do the work twice. And that one Math Patrol clip isn't enough reference (just as with Muppet Wiki, childhood memories of voices aren't enough to go on, even if they are mine). Unlike the Australians, there is a lot more reference material with confirmed specified roles or narration by Banas, so that's why I said it might be possible at some point, but it takes a lot of time and effort (as in days to weeks or more) and possibly money to do so.
I might be getting some Sesame Street episodes soon, and I want to know how to find each segment that's in the episodes. I know some segments have their own pages on the Muppet Wiki, but I don't know how to find the others. How do I find the segments for the episodes?
Andrew, I meant to write to you about this quite some time ago but never got around to it until now. When I added Paul Frees to the connections section of "Twice Upon a Time", you deleted him saying something about it just being lip synch. I don't understand what you mean by that. He was the voice of multiple characters, he's listed in the credits, and everything. Would you mind cluing me in as to why you don't think he should be referenced in the connections?
It means he isn't actually a connection because the Muppets lip-synched to his voice (way back I thought he'd done a commercial for them and it was proven incorrect), anymore than Ronald Reagan is for using clip footage. The connections section is for people who directly worked with the Muppets in a Muppet relevant project (or wrote something for Miss Piggy's books, took a picture, etc.)
It's why Paul Frees isn't on Old-time radio either. Any summary that says "no direct connection" (and you'll find a lot of them from a lot of people), that's what it means. Not questioning their involvement in that page or subject, but that they didn't work with the Muppets, were just referenced or had their voice or footage sampled and so forth.
No. A rule of thumb, check how a person is categorized. If a person's page is in Category:Celebrities or any of the direct actor/writer/crew categories, they're fair game for connections.
If it's in references or mentions only, they're not. That's why It's a Wonderful Life or a few other old movie pages link the stars from the top if they have pages... but not as connections, because James Stewart and Lionel Barrymore never worked with the Muppets. Similar to when someone wanted to add as connections to Epic Rap Battles of History every historical or fictional character portrayed, which didn't fit because those were usually only in as references, and those that weren't were impersonated, so either way it's not actually a connection.
I heard you guys say in Policies and Guidelines that you guys don't rely on memories for information, and I also heard Oscarfan say in a Muppet Central post "Memory Isn't Always Reliable". Why don't you guys trust our memories?
For the reason you mentioned. Memory alone isn't reliable. We don't trust our own memories generally until or unless verified by actual evidence (the source show, production documents, interview, whatever). People remember things or guests on Sesame Street or Muppet productions that never happened, and that's where rumors come from. I've remembered thinking a character was probably played by one performer, then find video footage and clear proof it wasn't. On and on it goes.
Memory cannot be verified since it's only in your head and can change with the years. A photograph or video of what you remember seeing, that can be shared and confirmed or corrected ("No, that's not so and so, that's...") It's as simple as that. Sometimes you can ask "I remember such and such happening" on a forum and someone else may actually have a video link or a document to add to it. But we can't just go by "I remember this," because our approach is encyclopedic and based on citing sources. Memory is not encyclopedic and can only be sourced outside of itself (that's what we mean by verifying a memory).