Thanks for the reminder. One of those sets is Gonzo and the Giant Chicken (the others are Missing Mother and Takes Manhattan) so YES once I dig it out I will scan it!
Also, Steve Whitmire gets credit for doing Camilla's clucks in that one (since none of Jerry Nelson's other characters are in it, I presume they figured it wasn't worth getting him down just to cluck, while Rizzo has some spoken dialogue).
Were you going to get Los Muppets? I'm finally working on a copy, and it's very interesting. It looks like some people have 2 voices (1 speaking/1 singing). So I'm going to work on the page now, but I might need your help, in case I'm not following the established format for dubbed albums. ¡Gracias!
Okay, the names are all in, and I have some questions for you later on that. Before I get to that, though, should I translate the titles literally, or just put the US counterpart in parentheses, or both? For example, Life's a Happy Song is "Que Bueno es Vivir", which is more like, "How Good It Is to Live"!
1) They have Humberto Vélez down twice, with an accent, and without. I copied it verbatim from the booklet.
2) They have some strange characters listed that don't make sense, or else we don't have any information on them: Purple Lady, Lips Johhny (sic), Deadly Bobo, BB Moopet, Eric, and Old Man. There's no information in the US booklet on these, either.
3) The lady who plays Mary is listed as Romina Marroquín Payró on the back cover, but only as Romina Marroquin inside. Which should it be? (There's an accent discrepancy on her name, too.)
Anyway, that seems to be it. I hope you can recognize some of the names in red!
P.S. I forgot one. They list Arturo Mercado and Arturo Mercado, Jr. as 2 different people with different characters. Is it actually the same person, or do we have a father and son team of voice actors in the same movie?
I can answer the last one quickly and easily. They are two different people indeed. Mexican dubbing is full of legacies (also, I'd need to get the album to check, a couple like Deadly Bobo seem like just plain errors, but "Old Man" for Mercado could be referring to Mickey Rooney, or else an elderly Muppet with a spoken line). Also, the surnames? It's common in Mexico to use the mother's maiden name as an additional surname, thus why Romina has three names. Sometimes credits will include all three, usually (especially in the US if any performers work there) they'll chop off that maiden name for brevity, and often it's a personal choice. So basically it's correct either way, but she generally goes by all three, so use Romina Marroquín Payró . She's the main Mexican voice of Amy Adams. And yep, caught some familiar names with some interesting histories to add!
I've been trapped on finishing up a certain chapter for weeks, thus only the quick peek-ins. Once it's off (tomorrow I hope), I'll look at it and also build that Los Muppets page for the theatrical release, with trailers and everything.
Hey Andrew. You know me and Broadway, so when I found a picture of Kermit posing with the cast of the National Tour of Jersey Boys I had to get it on the wiki. But it isn't a stage mention, it isn't a stage reference. What do you think about just putting it under celebrities? To theatre folks, the show is a monster hit, and it would thrill me to keep it on here.
Bah, had that wall problem again (this is getting frustrating and strange); I'm starting to wonder if it's connected to the threading (since when I went back to my main wall it was fine, but the problem occurred when I clicked the "Jersey" thread title to respond).
Anyway, on-topic. Although it's a more in-depth page, we have a precedent with The Cast of Fame. I think it would be less awkward for now if it was renamed to match that (obviously if we get an actual reference to the show, we can move) since otherwise it looks like they're a band or something. And you know I'm not the biggest fan of "there because they posed" pages but this was at an event where both performed (not that "Random people having a pic taken with Red Fraggle" stuff) so it definitely feels more legit (it's basically like when Pepe interviewed Harry Shearer at the Grammys, only not recorded). So I'm fine with it (and it is very cute), but I think a page rename for clarification would be ideal.
Oh, I see Julian already told you, but I wanted to tell you that we have German versions of the soundtrack and read-along! So that's 2 English CD's, 2 Spanish CD's, and 2 German CD's! Ah-ah-ah! Oh, I love it!
I saw! I'm excited indeed! I've enjoyed Donald Arthur's work in the German dubs, and it's perfect casting to have him as Uncle Deadly. I like the fact that, despite recasting Piggy and Kermit yet again, the list you supplied still has some Die Muppet Show vets like Arthur, Mogens von Gadow, Michael Rüth, and Tina Hoeltel. Thanks, Julian! And I love the fact that you, me, and Ken are all geeking out over the international stuff. I need to create a page for the Mexican release (their trailer ad campaign has been great, unique commercials created just for that market; no new Muppet stuff, but audiences watching the movie and having wacky stuff happen, with the tagline "Where there's chaos, there's Muppets.")
I thought to recall that Arthur had dubbed Deadly before, so I checked, and I was right! I'm excited for all these guys returning, though it sure makes me wonder about Andreas von der Meden... they seem to be trying to get someone very close to his Kermit, so I assume it might be his choice not to reprise the role. As for replacing Piggy yet again, that is such an odd thing to happen. Simply because it's what I grew up with, I would love Marianne Wischmann to return; though that ship has sailed.
Yeah, I enjoy us geeking out over this too! :) Maybe this is of interest to you?! Let's see those Mexican trailers!
Can you check out this template and see if I've got the lingo right (job descriptions)? Also, I wasn't sure about the "Country (Language)" solution... in the case of "Germany (German)" we might find differing release dates for Austria or Switzerland in the future, and would have to adjust the template accordingly, but then there already are different Spanish dubs for the Spanish speaking countries, so this made more sense. Is there anything else that would be good to include?
Hi, Julian! It looks nice! The only change I'm making is to shorten "Local adaptation" to "localization" (which is shorter and the same thing) and also see if I can shorten it. Of course there's also localized film editors, but that applies more to series (when they change the on-screen texts, adjust footage for synch, etc.) and we might want a different template for that. I like the Country/Language solution, since yeah, even in Spain, there's Castilian Spanish and then Catalan, and Brazilian dubs are in Portuguese, so it saves us having to specify "in Brazilian Portuguese" (compared to Italian and German dubs, where the language is self-explanatory).
We really do, but it's not as clearly stated. I think I know what you're referring to, the Henson Redbook stuff which Max has been uploading (and if it's anything other than that, it definitely needs to be shown to Scott, to have the watermark removed, or just yanked if it's not essential or easily replaced). To help at least identify them, Brad created Category:Red Book Images and a template, {{red-book}} . Max has been warned, but he lets enthusiasm get in his way, and one time it was kind of brought up, Danny didn't want to lose valuable pics. I think we really do need a full discussion and resolution of it, all the admins and the rest of the community, but time and issues have prevented us from doing so. I'd certainly be in favor of your starting it on Community Events. Right now, my own take is it's better to link than just take pics from the Redbook (Brad did that on Mike Tarkanian, for example, where the pic is a list and thus not really visually interesting to us anyway, it's the info we want).
A good example is Pastimes, where it's just an article, and the whole thing has been reposted. That should be turned into a link. For Reindeer, even with watermarking, the one black and white pic of the variety show reindeer is cute, but we don't need the sketch or newspaper pic (that's the other problem, many are stuck in sans caption). If we have to include them, and there are a few cases where they really are a huge help, I say we acknowledge the source in a caption. Doesn't make the watermarking less ugly but it explains to casual readers exactly why it's there. That sounds like a decent compromise solution to me.
Does where it comes from make a difference? I've seen a few movies from the Laserdisc Database, which don't seem as important as the stuff from Jim Henson's Redbook. Can we keep the watermark if we know that they're okay with us using the images? We've had other official acknowledgement before, and I'd like to think that official Henson/Sesame/Muppet people see that we're trying to use pictures for serious research. Plus the "Jim Henson" watermark just looks cool!
Yeah, it's a combination of borrowing concerns but the bigger issue is that it just looks sloppy and it's turning into "image farming" of pictures that already have a home where Muppet fans can find them, and we're linking to it on the page (and if we're not, we should be). If you find any watermarked pages, Ken, let us know (I had to let Max know when he was taking some not very important screengrabs of Elmo videogames from videogame databases, with huge watermarks, some pics even had stuff like "Do not take" on it!) It's one thing to "borrow" heavily, it's another to look sloppy about it!
That's my biggest concern right now, sloppy looking pages, and that a great many pages are become more about the pictures than content. I noticed quite a few the past few days from newspaper databases, etc. If Scott is able to take watermarks off important pictures, that is great. I have one personally that is housed on a talk page that I'll point out to him. Many are not incredibly important, but somewhat interesting. And then there are lots from the Red Book. I'll start something in a day or so if nobody else does. Right now my bed is calling and work is coming early tomorrow.
I'm okay with taking watermarks off of many images, with the exception of those published by the Red Book blog. They have a similar mission to what I feel Muppet Wiki is about, and they're clearly not okay with other sites using the images without attribution. Hence the comically, over-done watermarks on every image they upload. If there are pictures from just about anywhere else, I'll be happy to clean them up as best I can.
Yeah, I personally prefer the suggestion I mentioned. Consider, do we really *need* to host every single Redbook picture here? When it's pasting each and every page of an article available on the Redbook (again, I'm thinking of Pastimes), or it's a still that's basically similar to a screengrab (there's one like that of the bicycle scene from Great Muppet Caper), I say no. Conversely, rare historical pics of Jim or of a Muppeteer we can't find anywhere else, yeah, we should include it with watermarks; for sketch images, while I do love them, I think on something like Reindeer, a link is fine (the two images are rather repetitive, and right now there's no caption or context for any of it anyway).
Since Brad's categorized most of them, when we have time, we can go through and figure out which Redbook pics add to the article and which are redundant (likewise, if Sesame Workshop had a single page of images for a specific subject, or any other major Muppety source, it would be silly for us to include all of their images rather than just link to the article),
I share similar concerns with Nate and Andrew, and although I think having a Redbook category for these images helps, it doesn't give an excuse in having to reupload every photo from Redbook entries. I also agree that we shouldn't be uploading pics with big glaring watermark logos of the Chicago Tribune, HAVIdigital.com, etc. So yeah, I'm in favor of an official policy on watermarks.
I don't think we should be removing watermarks on Red Book images like this. The Henson Archives are being pretty clear that they want credit for them, and removing their credit is kind of like a smack in the face. I don't mind smacking GettyImages in the face, but as I said before, the Red Book blog exists in the same spirit as does Muppet Wiki, and I think we should be a little more courteous to them.
Yeah, you are right. I've done this before with a fewotherimages with no intention of insulting the right of the Henson Archives, but just for the sake of having cleaner images here. If others feel the same, I won't do it anymore. I am in favor of having the Redbook images, but I agree with Andrew that a limit needs to be set on what and what not to include.
Yeah, I actually mentioned that reindeer pic earlier as one which I could understand having here, but with the watermarks (and ideally, attribution in a caption or elsewhere, so it's clearer why it's there). It's the sketch pics that I don't think need to be there. For the other examples Jonathan gave, two out of three are just on a gallery page (I don't think we ever did fully figure out how to use that, whether it's just for our internal use)
Hey Andrew. Can you take a look at Prince Charming and let me know if we should take down the videos posted. They are incredibly bad quality. My main question is, if we remove them from the page, are they still somehow housed on the wiki (kinda like the Unused Photos? (videos are the one thing I've never really mastered on here)
Yeah, they *are* bad. I think I noticed it way back but forgot to adjust. It's not something we really want our visitors to see, *but* it's useful to verify that there was a source and for anyone who wants to check for research. So I'd say park them on the talk page with an explanation.
Can you help me figure out something? How do we organize translations? Going by the records, if another country (like Germany or Japan) has an English recording (like SS1) released in that country, we put it in the international gallery at the bottom of the record page. But if a record is dubbed from US tracks (like early Sesamstrasse records or the French Muppet Show records), it gets its own page. But on books, translations of US titles go on the bottom. So far, I can understand that. Where I'm getting confused is on movies. On The Muppet Movie and Follow That Bird, we have foreign dubs mixed in at the bottom with non-US versions in English, like UK and Australia. But on other movies, we have separate pages for each and every foreign dub. I know in some cases, we don't have any information besides a cover picture, but it gets confusing when I'm trying to see what we're missing. Is there a way to make it simpler, like just give every dub its own page, so we can see what we have, or am I missing something that was agreed on a long time ago?
Hi, Ken! That's a good question. I'm having a hard time finding what you mean on The Muppet Movie though, since it's not on the movie page. Did you mean The Muppet Movie (video)? There, it's actually excluding the known dubs so far, and the few dubbed entries (Japan, Spain; Sweden may be subtitled, that's unclear) we have no info to create a solo page for.
That's also the problem with Follow That Bird (video), although by now we have enough material to make a page for the Mexican dub (especially since a user also uploaded menu grabs and such, so it's very clunky) and I think I may have some for the German, need to double check (but it's stuff like the voice of Oscar and Waylon Jennings, not for Big Bird or a full list, so I'd waited). I think I may have seen examples of what you mention on actual movie pages, but not sure right now, so if you find any more, mention them here and I'll look into it when I have time.
A bigger issue on that might be whether to go ahead and create international video pages in cases like that (more recently, to solve such issues for the current Muppet movie, we have International The Muppets (2011) and gradually creating solo pages for dubs as we can confirm details (I forget if I told you, Mexico has a whole campaign to document, of people watching it in a theater and getting into wacky antics and then pausing to realize it's just like the movie; no new Muppet movie, but clips). Personally, over the galleries, I prefer the format used on Muppet Treasure Island (video), with country on top, making it clearer whether it's a dub, a sub, or has multiple language options, and so on. It would also make it easier to note cases where basically, someone just found a cover but we know nothing whatsoever about the release. That's worth discussion at either Category:International Muppet Video or. I think one of the major reasons for the inconsistency is simply not everyone being on the same page or enthusiasm overcoming research (take a look at Talk:Os Muppets; that's still a mess and I'm debating whether to just delete and park, since half the info on there is provably wrong!)
Yeah, I meant the video releases. Looking at various dub pages, some stuff seems to be treated as a film release, and others as a video release, and some are in both. I think part of what's confusing me is that some pages and tables are set up differently. It's late and I'm not sure I'm making sense, but let me go through some of the video pages, and I'll see if I can explain in more detail later.
Hi! I know everybody's going nuts with seeing the movie, working on movie pages, and also getting ready for Thanksgiving, so I'm writing this now so I don't forget. Can you let me know your thoughts over on Talk:The Muppets (soundtrack)? Thanks!
Thanks for posting about your problems on the Wall -- I'm going to test it on IE 8 and see what we can do to fix it. Sorry that's happening! I'm gonna test now.
Huzzah! I can now see the button to enter! Fixed. I'd shut down my PC but the problem hit before I went to work, so I didn't have time to restart and check. Hopefully it's resolved for good, but I'll let you know if it (or any other bugs) happen again. That was the frustration of having switched completely to walls over the old talk pages, no way to tell anybody!
I know once upon a time you and I sort of put together a rule of thumb that to have a reference page it needed to either be a visual reference, or there needed to be three verbal references to create a page. I've been doing some housekeeping and I am noticing a few pages in references that don't meet this guideline. What do you think about creating a minor TV reference page? I'm not real sold on the idea, but I'm trying to come up with an idea.
I know I have a User page that I started to house minor things as I come across them that I can grab if and when something major appears. The two examples I can think of off the top of my head are Benson and Kung Fu. Any suggestions/ideas? Leave sleeping dogs alone?
We have minor mention pages for books and tv series, which has seemed to work well there. Just throught I'd toss it out at you while I was thinking about it.
Browser keeps flashing epileptic style, geeze. Anyway, I'm not as sold on minor references versus minor mentions (in part because it may be harder to bulk up, and since this is stuff *by* the Muppets, while more relevant, true, it also looks sadder). The Kung Fu reference is actually more amusing/significant than Benson (and we could use a screengrab of Kermit saying it), *but* Benson may have actually had a Muppet Mention at some point. Part of the rule of thumb was also group references (i.e. William Shakespeare and Dashiell Hammett) versus solos, so when to break something out when it already had a perfectly good home on a larger page. Scott's right in that we've always been stricter on Mentions as opposed to References, but Benson and Kung Fu do look pretty sad right now, so I agree it's worth looking at. We retired Sandboxes, but this is a good example of a situation that should be sandboxed (whatever we call it now, I think just moving to user page like you did) until we figure it out. I'll weigh in more when I'm feeling better *and* my computer doesn't hate me./
Not yet! It will, but that's why I said I'm waiting "until the final credits come out." Right now it's just a word doc of Production NOtes, not the full PDF with everything. I'm checking every day! But since you mention it, and other folks have more time than I do right now (and also to clarify some things), I'll do something I don't usually do and post the whole thing to the talk page.
Can you pop over to the talk page on Cleavon Little? I trust your opinion very very much, and there are some questions I've raised about sources of Little being "proto Gordon" that I think we need to remove.
No clue right now, Nate. I did try to see if it matched images of any of the "Warhol Superstars" on http://www.warholstars.org/filmch/superstar.html but so far no dice (but I have work shortly so no time to go all the way through). She looks vaguely like a blonde Audrey Hepburn but I think that's represented further down in the series.
Awwww, thanks. That's the joy of Wikis. I'm wanting to find time to, you know, actually make fun pages again soon. I might even stay up tonight and do so (Rosie the Riveter is awesome, but with some other scattered items and one or two we've been sitting on, there's enough for a World War II page! Plus I promised Ken the Salvation Army ages ago; it's mostly because I hadn't felt like going through It's a Very Merry Muppet Christmas Movie again yet.)
Yeah, I've only just recently started to make some fun pages again. Three Wolf Moon and Rosie the Riveter among them. Trying to put in some more time here and the Superman Wiki when I can.
Oooh. I still have lots of Superman radio/TV/some early comics stuff to add there (I need to find time to listen to a few serials or at least part of them, because "Superman Inc." (not yet called DC it seems) ran some text stories in Radio and Television Mirror capturing climatic moments or recapping the tail end of a previous serial story as a single short story, with illustrations by the same Superman staff artists (and thus it allows for a way to visualize some of the radio serials or characters, or for a couple which are lost, serves as the only record; there's at least five or six of these, I need to go through the PDFs I found again, buried in the whole issues, and found on an Old-time radio resource site). Plus by now I have IDs for at least five Inspector Henderson radio actors. Oh, and the TV opening dubbed into Spanish in Puerto Rico ("Mas veloz de una bala!")
Nice! I know I should be working on the foundation a bit more, but I've been enjoying putting together articles for the likes of Superman's beard, Jor-El A.I and Green Lantern.
Ha! I was tempted to leave a message on your wall with that exact same title, but decided against it. Now we just need to find a way to get Lewis Stone (Judge Hardy) on the Wiki!
I'm sure we'll find a way eventually. lol. My new theory is that at celebrity parties in Hollywood the newest craze is for actors to discuss whether or not they have an entry on the Muppet Wiki. lol. -- Nate (talk) 19:23, November 3, 2011 (UTC)
