Talk:Muppet Songs

Category's purposeEdit

On the talk page for Miss Piggy's Aerobique Exercise Workout Album, we were discussing whether every Aerobique song deserves its own page. I said that I didn't think "Snackcercise" needed a page, because everything that was on that page could easily be on the album page.

Peter said: "I disagree. Category:Muppet Songs is essentially a comprehensive list of all Muppet songs. Unfortunately, you can't have your song in the category if it doesn't have its own page."

I think that's worth talking about, so I'm moving the discussion here.

Personally, I don't think "Muppet Songs" is a comprehensive list of Muppet songs -- I think it's a list of Muppet songs that we have articles about on the wiki. There are some albums that were recorded as a piece, with one composer and a handful of performers. Aerobique is one, and there's also Camping in Canada and Getting Ready for School. There may be others that I'm not thinking of. There's just nothing to say about most of these songs, except here's another song that was on this album. There's no pictures, no real details.

If we were able to post lyrics, then that would be different -- every song page would have plenty of material. But as it stands, I think we should only have song pages when there's something to say about the song that isn't just duplicating what's on the album page or the show page. -- Danny (talk) 12:04, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree--if someone were to search for the title of any of the songs from one of those albums, it would direct them to the album's page anyway. I don't think a page for every single song is neccessary, especially not if there wouldn't be very much information on those pages. Chunk 16:01, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree too, with the usual Wiki proviso of exceptions *if* someone can actually flesh out such a page; if someone with Fabulous Miss Piggy Show is able to screengrab the "Snackercise" scene, for example, maybe discuss the choreography, irony, etc., that might make a neat page. I'd discourage the creation of stub pages of this type in the vain *hope* there might be more info, but when there is, there's no reason not to break them out, or if I have anurge to write 200 words on "Aerodynamic" from Camping in Canada and its melding of scientific explanation of a science concept, plot exposition-scene setting, catchy music, and Canadian accents. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 16:05, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely -- if somebody has stuff to say, then a page would be great. -- Danny (talk) 16:23, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I totally disagree. Like Danny said on some other talk page, one of the great things about the category pages is seeing a name that might seem familiar even if you were never going to remember it on your own, and then clicking on it. Either way, I think I've figured it out. I just created a page for "Lift the One You Love" and redirected it to the Aerobique album. We usually don't categorize redirect pages, but if we do, they show up on the category. Which should solve everyone's problems. -- Peter (talk) 18:28, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Ooh, that's a great idea! You're brilliant. Plus that leaves the space open for somebody to create a page, if there's something to say. -- Danny (talk) 19:51, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

What's the question?Edit

We gave this conversation a time out a couple weeks ago. Do we want to reopen it? I just read the discussion again, and I can't quite figure out what the question is. Do people still want to change the way that the Muppet Songs category works? If so, how? Is this a bigger question of what counts as "the Muppet Universe"? If so, what impact does that have? If someone could clearly set out what the question under discussion is, I think that would help a lot... -- Danny (talk) 16:51, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I've pretty much given up. Scott can do what he likes, the only things I'd like to insist on would be, as discussed, moving out the specials songs, and a clear definition of the "Muppet universe" aspect on the category page. I still don't agree with it, and it still feels very odd as far as cross-over songs, but if it works organizationally, it works, and at least now I understand what he was trying to do. And someone needs to create the Jim Henson Hour Songs category, since I hate having a redlinked category (though that related to my other question, why a show with maybe 5 to 7 unique songs gets a category and the movie soundtracks don't, or rather whether they should, but that may be another discussion). The Muppet Universe issue, eh. It seems a bit subjective, although Danny and I did recently discuss it in terms of Category:Locations, whether or not to lump all the Muppet Movies locations or whatnot into a generic "Muppet Show Universe" category of some sort, to better fit places like Ma Bear's farmhouse (A Muppet Family Christmas) or Camp Weirdo (Muppet Classic Theater) related to the general Muppet Show Muppet universe but not The Muppet Show itself. Andrew Leal (talk) 17:03, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Andrew, I think you're jumping ahead of the discussion. The point of taking a time out and coming back to the conversation was that there may have been misunderstandings about what the question was. Restating the question again allows for some new perspectives -- people who can't follow the previous discussion (like me, frankly) will be able to weigh in on it, and maybe help everyone to come to a happier consensus. So what's the question? -- Danny (talk) 17:06, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Ah okay. Well, the initially question was what exactly "Muppet Songs" as a category is supposed to be, especially with the seperate Muppet Show and Muppets Tonight songs categories which are *also* listed under Muppet songs. Second question is the universe issue, why Sesame Street and Fraggle Rock Songs aren't also Muppet Songs, or why "I Love Trash" would then "become" a Muppet song by virtue of being performed on a show with Kermit, Fozzie, etc. Third question is whether to do something about the Muppet Movie soundtracks, since the TV shows have already been given their own category. I don't know if that makes it any clearer, but. Andrew Leal (talk) 17:11, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, let me see if I have it. The question is, should "Muppet Songs" be:

a) Songs from the Muppet Show and related spinoffs -- TMS, Jim Henson Hour (MuppeTelevision), Muppets Tonight, Muppet movies, Muppet Family Christmas, etc. (Also songs sung by Miss Piggy & other Muppet Show characters in guest appearances.)

b) Songs from the Muppet Show and related spinoffs, plus the storybook specials like Emmet Otter, Frog Prince, Bunny Picnic.

c) Songs sung by any Muppet Character (i.e., non-Creatures) -- songs from TMS, the storybook specials, Sesame Street, Fraggle Rock, etc.

d) Songs sung by any Muppet Character, plus songs sung by non-Muppets on Muppet shows and movies -- all of the above, plus "When Love is Gone", "The Word is No", etc.

On that list, the choices get larger as you go down, including more stuff under the heading of "Muppet Songs". Are those all of the options we can think of, or did I miss something? -- Danny (talk) 18:14, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I like option d). Muppet Songs are songs used in muppet productions, performed by whoever, + songs performed by/with Muppets in non-muppet productions. To me, that's the simplest way to understand it; Muppet Songs is just a broad category. I get very confused at the idea that a guest spot on TMS isn't a muppet song simply because no muppets sing in it. And what about the lip-synched stuff?? If I'm editing/setting up a page I don't know what to do at that point.

Incidentally, I see no reason not to have a separate category for Muppet movie songs as well. -- Wendy (talk) 18:28, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the broader question regards how we use the word Muppet on the wiki. We say that Ernie and Gobo are Muppet Characters, but that "Rubber Duckie" and "Follow Me" are not Muppet Songs. We need to be internally consistent with how we use the word. -- Peter (talk) 18:41, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

That's a good point. I was thinking that I liked option b, but now that you say that, d makes more sense. -- Danny (talk) 18:54, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought before we resumed this discussion, we were going to establish what the Muppet Universes are. I can't see continuing until we've done that. I'll be happy to start that conversation as soon as I know how I want to say it. -- Scott (talk) 17:30, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

So should I take the talk box off the category for now? -- Danny (talk) 17:43, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Deciding what the Muppet Universe is is only relevant if we vote for options a or b, because in that case we need to figure out exactly where to draw the line. If we vote for options c or d, then the category clearly includes songs from outside the Muppet Universe (no matter what the definition is), and the argument about what exactly the Muppet Universe is becomes moot. -- Erik (talk) 19:26, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

A time out?Edit

I'm noticing something in the tone of this conversation that reminds me of some misunderstandings that we've had before. The discussion's been going on for five days, and it's starting to get confusing -- people are misunderstanding each other, and it's hard to keep track of what's been decided. There's a little edge that creeps in to discussions at this point, where it starts to feel like we're getting close to making decisions, so you have to add your comment right away, even if you don't really feel like you've got it all straight in your mind yet.

If other people feel the same way, then I'd like to propose taking a little time out from this discussion, just to clear everybody's head, and start over fresh, maybe on Monday. There's obviously no urgent need to make these decisions right this minute -- whether something is categorized as a "Sesame Song" or a "Muppet Song" for the next few days isn't going to break the wiki. If other folks don't think it's necessary to take a break, that's fine. I just wanted to offer it as a possibility. -- Danny (talk) 22:21, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

As per below, I propose a discussion about what makes a "Muppet Universe," maybe next week to let the air clear on the subject. Either on Current Events, or on a new page the way we did with Muppets vs Creatures. -- Scott (talk) 00:17, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

More Song Discussion 02Edit

So, "Rubber Duckie" is a Muppet song? That doesn't make sense. Does that make sense? -- Scott (talk) 21:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

If Ernie is a Muppet Character, which is how we classify him, then yes, "Rubber Duckie" should be a Muppet Song. -- Peter (talk) 21:51, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Forgive me, I seem to have misread lots. So, what isn't a Muppet song? -- Scott (talk) 21:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

"As the World Falls Down?"

"I'm an Aardvark" for one. Sesame Street tune, but not a Muppet song. I'd argue that songs specifically from the soundtrack credits, like "Love Power" and "Precious Wings" are respectively Muppet Treasure Island and Elmo in Grouchland songs, but I'm not sure if they're Muppet songs since no Muppets or for that matter Sesame Street characters perform or are otherwise involved in the songs (especially Precious Wings, at least "Love Power" plays over the rats). I'd argue that "When Love Is Gone" isn't a Muppet song, just a "Muppet Christmas Carol" song. "Amodogus" is a Muppet Babies song but not a Muppet song since it was only performed in animated form and not on a Muppet show (so it could go in a category with songs performed on both puppet and animated versions of Fraggle Rock and "The Alligator King"). Like Peter said, any Creature Shop movie songs are automaticallu out of it. And again. I'll repeat two examples, apart from the fact that "Rubber Duckie," while not performed on The Muppet Show, was specifically referred to in The Muppets: A Celebration of 30 Years as "the Muppets first big hit." "Bein' Green" was performed on Sesame Street, Muppet Show, and countless of other places. No matter how you slice it, it's a Muppet song, and it seems odd to me to suddenly decide that the very first performance of it was thus purely a Sesame Street song and not a Muppet one, despite being performed by the most famous Muppet of all. "I Love Trash" was performed by k.d. Lang with Muppet garbage bags on The Jim Henson Hour, and it seems strange to me to suddenly decide that it could then be added as Muppet songs (it hasn't yet) when in fact it has been all along. I know you're probably busy (I'm suffering from internal digestive problems myself right now), but when you get a chance, Scott, please read everything under "More Song Discussion." At this point, though, I'm half tempted to just give up, and let you figure it out. Just put something as a definition in the category so the rest of us can understand it. Andrew Leal (talk) 22:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Ugh. So, we'll have, like, 20 songs not in Muppet Songs. That's silly. Songs have different criteria than characters and we shouldn't be using the same model for organizing them. Ernie is a Sesame Street Muppet, but Fozzie is a Muppet Muppet (for lack of a better term). This is the way I would do it...

Category:Muppet Songs
(songs from the Muppet Universe)
-Muppet Show
-Muppets Tonight
-Muppet Television
-Muppet Movies
-Muppet Family Christmas
-Muppets Go to the Movies
-Fantastic Miss Piggy Show
-Muppet Appearances: variety shows, talk shows, etc.

Category:Sesame Songs
(songs from the Sesame Universe)
-Sesame Street
-Sesame Specials
-Sesame Direct-to-Video
-CinderElmo
-Don't Eat the Pictures
-Sesame Live

Category:MuppetLand Songs
(songs from the various MuppetLand Universes)
-Emmet Otter
-Frog Prince
-Hey Cinderella
-Bremen

Category:Fraggle Rock Songs
(songs from the Fraggle Rock Universe)
-Fraggle Rock
-Fraggle Rock animated

Category:Bear Songs
(songs from the Bear Universe)
-Bear in the Big Blue House
-Breakfast with Bear
-Bear Live

-- Scott (talk) 22:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

To quote you at the begining, "I think it's a bad idea to break up Muppet Songs. If we do that, we might as well get rid of Category:Muppet Characters and split them up by produuction." I assumed you were trying to compare the two, not just making a broad generalization at random. At this point, I don't care, but if you specifically define it in the category tag that way, I'll go with it. I still think this whole "universe" business is a bit messy since outside of Creatures, most of the Muppet "universes" have overlaps, Kermit hosting specials and so on. So, if someone suddenly has a passionate desire to create pages for Mr. Willowby's Christmas Tree songs, what would it go under? It's like Emmet Otter and other specials in that Kermit just has a cameo, but it wasn't put out under the "Tales from Muppetland" banner in any form. Andrew Leal (talk) 22:09, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Scott -- I think that's the most useful way to do it. One reason to split it up that way is that the kinds of songs you get in each category is really different. Sesame Songs are (for the most part) written specifically for the Sesame characters. Lots of the Muppet Songs are cover versions of older songs. I'd also add a separate category for Muppet Babies Songs. -- Danny (talk) 22:13, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not saying we break up Muppet Songs at all. I'm saying that we should keep it the way it is. But since we have Muppet Show Songs, we should also have Muppets Tonight Songs, etc. So, for example, "I've Got a Lovely Bunch of Coconuts" goes in both Muppet Songs and Muppet Show Songs, while "Sweet Vacation" goes also in Muppet Songs, but also in JHH Songs. -- Scott (talk) 22:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, if we say "Storybook Specials Songs" instead of "MuppetLand", that covers Bunny Picnic, Christmas Toy and Mr. Willowby under one heading. -- Danny (talk) 22:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I think this all came from what is "Muppet Universe". Tales from MuppetLand, Sesame Street, Emmet Otter, and Muppet Babies all have Kermit and other cross-over characters. Plus things like "Muppet Family Christmas", "Celebration of 30 years" and "Celebrate Jim Henson" blur that line between Muppet/Sesame/Fraggle even more. It is simple to say if a song was or was not performed in a specific production or was or was not performed by a type of character but to say "Bein Green" is or isn't part of the Muppet/Sesame universe gets a bit arbitrary (especially with the more obscure songs). Will the songs from "Muppet Family Christmas" be in Muppet, Sesame and Fraggle songs (as they were sung by all three universes)? Songs sung on "Muppet Show" or "Fraggle Rock" has a clear line, but "Muppet Universe" gets blurry in points. -- Brad D. (talk) 22:18, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I would agree with putting Muppet Family Christmas ensemble songs in all three categories. Also, Kermit may narrate Emmet Otter, but it's clearly an isolated story. Even Bunny Picnic, where Bean Bunny went on to become a member of the Muppet Universe, is self-contained and would fit in better with "Storybook Songs." Should we put together a Muppet Wiki page defining Muppet Universe? -- Scott (talk) 23:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

So much for time outs, then. Well, I've pretty much been ready to give in at this point anyway. The thing with Muppet Universe is, how do we define it? Even more so than Muppets vs Creatures, where there was both general feelings and specific statements on what constituted a creature or a Muppet, even a definition seems subjective. I see the "Muppet universe" as anything clearly labeled as Muppets and especially with any continuity ties to it, not just "Muppet Show" Muppets, with a lot of little pockets inbetween, and with Creatures and possibly things like Dog City operating on another plane. You see it as being just Muppet Show/Movies and completely distinct from all the other series. From the discussions on the page, others seem to feel somewhere inbetween. So before creating such a page, I really feel it would call for a general discussion. Right now, if you include a definition of what constitutes the Muppet universe in the songs category, I'm fine with it, since you created the category. But for a larger page, as a potential policy, it should go to current events first. Andrew Leal (talk) 23:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

A clear definition page might help. We've defined what a Muppet is, but we might want to solidify what makes something part of The Muppets (aka the Muppet universe). When Jim Henson started out a Muppet was a Muppet, but over time as more shows and worlds were created the word Muppet and "The Muppet Show"-family characters started to shift. There are lines between Sesame/Fraggle/Muppet but it is all blurred together (such as Favorite Songs From Jim Henson's Muppets or The Muppets: A Celebration of 30 Years). We can tell if it's Fraggle or Sesame pretty easy. But just saying "Muppet Show"-characters can be blurry (especially with all the cross-overs and spin-offs). Just saying Disney-owned properties is also at times blurry. Where do "Muppet Babies", "The Ed Sullivan Show", "Sam & Friend", Rowlf on "The Jimmy Dean Show", "Wilkins and Wontkins" and "The Tales from Muppetland" fall?

Many characters (not just Kermit) from the "Muppet Universe" have been used in productions outside and vise-versa (such as "Animal Show", "Fraggle Rock", "Dog City", "Bunny Picnic" and even "Sesame Street"). We need to define what makes it part of the universe or what makes it just a cross-over guest-spot type of thing.

But I do agree that this debate shouldn't happen in "Muppet Songs".-- Brad D. (talk) 00:11, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

More Song DiscussionEdit

It's getting cramped again. Anyway, I like the Storybook Specials Songs category. But Scott, if Jim Henson Hour, Muppets Tonight, *and* Muppet Show all have their own categories, why not the movies? You brought up Muppet Characters earlier. The category is characetrs who are Muppets, not characters who are from the Muppet Show. So that's part of why Muppet Songs has confused me. Your definition earlier makes sense and would help, though it's complicated to my mind if there's already subcats for the three main "Muppet Show" universe series. And let's look at some individual pages. "Bein' Green" is listed as a Sesame Street Song, Muppet Show Song, Muppets Tonight Song, *and* Muppet song. And I'd definitely consider "Bein' Green" a Muppet song, no debate there. But isn't "Rubber Duckie" just as much a Muppet song, one could argue? (Whereas other Sesame Street songs, like "I'm an Aardvark", aren't Muppet songs at all). "I Love Trash" was performed by K.D. Lang on The Jim Henson Hour, so should it suddenly be added as a Muppet song, when in fact one could argue it was always a Muppet song? Andrew Leal (talk) 18:58, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I like Muppet Show songs (and Muppets Tonight songs). I find it useful as a way to create a grouping of all the songs that were done on the show. Short of going through all 120 episode pages, it's hard to see a list of the songs done on the program. And I think for Muppet Show fans, its fun to see a list of all the songs that show used (same can be said about MT and even JHH). We have "Muppet Show Skits" rather than "Muppet Skits" for that same kind of reason.

I think comparing "Muppet characters" to "Muppet songs" leads me to think that this "Muppet" definition isn't a clear one. Muppet characters is a category for all Muppet characters (Muppet Show, Fraggle Rock, Sesame Street, Bear in the Big Blue House, commercials, shorts, Muppets Tonight...whatever). It is not a category for just for the customary Muppet Show-family characters (its not just Kermit and Fozzie, but it also includes Gobo and Big Bird) nor is it for any character from a Muppet production (such as the non-Muppet Doc Hopper or Long John Silver). We have Muppet Show characters, Sesame Street characters, Fraggle Rock characters to re-group them by when they were used. But drawing the line that Grump, Emmet Otter, Gobo, Big Bird or T.R. are or aren't part of The Muppet Show-family any more than Pepe the King Prawn, Digit, or Kenner Gooney Bird is hard (especially given all the cross over characters/productions).

Muppet songs is (currently) only for songs from what we call Muppet Show-family productions. However I'm not so sure if there really is a clear line for Muppet Show-family. For example is Emmet Otter (it has Kermit and other TMS background Muppets) and Bunny Picnic (it stars Bean Bunny)? Its easy to define songs (or characters) that were on "The Muppet Show" or "Fraggle Rock". But what is "Muppet" and not "Muppet"? I think a generic songs category (for all songs from Sesame Street, Muppet Show, commercials, Fraggle Rock…) and/or seeing sub categories by production is the way to got. Seeing a category that includes a song that a pre-frog Kermit and an unknown monster sang in 1958 along with a song Pepe sang on a talk show in 2003 mixed in with a 1983 film song makes me wonder why Kermit's 1974 song on Sesame Street or that song the Fraggles sang at Jim Henson's memorial aren't in there either. Muppets Tonight songs makes scenes it is clear what is, and what isn't, a song that was on that show. But is music from a 1962 Kraml Dairy commercial, the Tales from Muppetland, or a bit from The Jimmy Dean Show "Muppet" or not? And why are not Bar-B-Que or Amadogus not in here? -- Brad D. (talk) 19:18, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'd say "Amadogus" is disqualified for the same reason "The Alligator King" would be, it's from an animated episode and unless we want to count the stage shows, was never used in a Muppet production, and I mean that in the broadest sense. Which highlights something, I think. With Brad's points, and Scott's comparison to Muppet characters, why *not* just treat it the way we do Muppet characters? Add Fraggle Rock and Bear in the Big Blue House songs, split up the movies and specials just like we have characters and locations and merchandise split up by movies and specials, but they'd still be in the Muppet songs category. Scott mentioned Dinosaurs songs but we've decided they're not Muppets anyway, so that's a non issue. And then we could also make individual decisions within the shows. Like I'd said earlier, "I'm an Aardvark" or "Everybody Eats" or "Ladybug Picnic" are all Sesame Street songs but none of them are Muppet songs in the way that "C Is for Cookie" unquestionably is. Is "Precious Wings," performed on the soundtrack as the end credits roll in The Adventures of Elmo in Grouchland really a Muppet song? An animated songs category could be created if needed to house the Muppet Babies stuff, songs repeated on both the animated and Muppet versions of Fraggle Rock, Sesame Street song cartoons, etc. We could even have individual debates whether something like "When Love Is Found," performed in a Muppet movie by live action co-stars, is a Muppet song or just a Muppet Christmas Carol song. Yeah, it would be a lot bigger and messier, but it would be closer to how we have Muppet characters and other categories organized. Andrew Leal (talk) 20:11, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I think that "Muppet Songs" (for any song from a Muppet production), "Creature Shop Songs" (for any song from a Creature Shop production), and "Animated Songs" (for any song from an animated production) be the three big categories (like how we have Muppet, Creatures, and Animated characters) and then also give them a category (or categories) based on the production (whether it be "Muppet Show", "Sesame Street", "Muppet Treasure Island", "Kermit Unpigged", "Labyrinth"...). I think that would work. -- Brad D. (talk) 21:33, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I like Brad's solution to do it by production type. It's simple and straightforward. We could put a heading on each category page that says (eg) "Songs from Muppet Productions", to make it quite clear what is meant. -- Wendy (talk) 03:48, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Brad and Wendy. -- Scott (talk) 20:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Whoah -- wait a minute... I must have misread something... Are we putting Sesame Songs in Muppet Songs? Because I disagree with that. Muppet Songs should be for the Muppet Universe. Sesame Songs should be for the Sesame Universe. -- Scott (talk) 21:20, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, you must have misread. Scroll back up and read the whole thing. Brad, Wendy, and I were in agreement that Muppet Songs could be used like Muppet Characters, including any song performed by Muppets, and I'd gathered since you said you agreed, that the next step would be to gradually migrate in the Sesame songs that are Muppet songs (many aren't), and the Fraggle songs and so forth, and create subdivisions for the movies and the rest, so anything that was *legitimately* a Muppet song would be in both a category by production and the main category. If we're making a division by "universes", then we're back to square one on this discussion. And in which case I'm not at all sure why you brought up the Muppet Characters category as a means of comparison to begin with. And if you want to do it that way, then a) you need to define the category since clearly many of us don't understand it in the way you do (which makes sense since you created it, but a category is only really useful if others understand how it works as well) and b) it still raises issues with what to split out (I guess you are agreed on the specials anyway) and what to just leave in only Muppet category with no other category. Andrew Leal (talk) 21:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Subcategories?Edit

Recently, Brad created Muppet Show Songs, and there's also Muppets Tonight Songs and Michael created redlinks for a yet to be created Jim Henson Hour Songs. This has me wondering if we should go ahead and just create subcats for the remainder (mostly movies, specials, and album songs), and use this as the umbrella category for "Muppet Show Universe" songs, or whatnot. On the one hand, I kind of like having all of the songs in one place. On the other, though, it seems weird to click on "Let's Call the Whole Thing Off" and see it under Muppet Songs and Muppet Show Songs. Andrew Leal (talk) 19:51, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, we do the same thing with Muppet Characters and Muppet Show Characters... -- Danny (talk) 19:58, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but that's to mark that the characters are Muppets and not unseen characters or live animals and so forth, and we do that for all shows. On the other hand, we don't have any of the Fraggle Rock Songs under Muppet Songs. The rest in Category:Songs are all divided by production, and it now includes Muppet Songs and Muppet Show Songs. I'm not saying it has to be done, but I thought it worth discussing, particularly if folks are going to create Jim Henson Hour Songs or possibly The Frog Prince songs and so forth anyway (there's already Category:Emmet Otter Songs). Andrew Leal (talk) 20:27, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

In that case, I think it makes sense that we don't have a Muppet Songs category, and we just split it up by production. -- Danny (talk) 15:20, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

That works. The only iffy one might be albums, (Kermit Unpigged, Christmas albums, etc.). Would a Muppet Albums Songs be clearer or not? Another thing about this category was the definition of what's a "Muppet" song seemed iffy. Emmet Otter got his own category but Muppet Musicians of Bremen didn't. So splitting up makes sense to me. Andrew Leal (talk) 16:40, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it's a bad idea to break up Muppet Songs. If we do that, we might as well get rid of Category:Muppet Characters and split them up by produuction. In other words, what's wrong with leaving it the way it is? -- Scott (talk) 16:57, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I dunno. Good point. -- Danny (talk) 17:00, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Why is it "the way it is," though? There's a fairly clear rationale about how Muppet Characters relates to the individual show categories, and includes everyone that doesn't fit anywhere else as well. That's not at all apparent from the current state of Muppet Songs, with no text defining the category. Fraggle Rock characters like Sprocket and Wembley are under Muppet characters (while those that aren't Muppets, like Doc, well, aren't), but Fraggle Rock songs like "Sing That Law Again" aren't also categorized as Muppet Songs. Emmet Otter, a special with a brief appearance by Kermit, gets its own category, while Muppet Musicians doesn't and those songs are classified as "Muppet Songs," sharing space with Muppet Show sonsg which are double categorized, The Muppet Movie songs, and "When Love Is Gone." Why? If I start creating pages for The Tale of the Bunny Picnic tunes, should I create a new category or just dump them all here with and "Sweetums"? I probably wouldn't have created Muppet Show or Muppets Tonight Songs myself, as I like the big category too, but now that they're there, I think it's worth thinking about what is actually being done with this category and why. Andrew Leal (talk) 17:19, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought it was just Muppet Songs. Not Fraggle Rock Songs or Emmet Otter Songs or Sesame Street Songs or Dinosaurs Songs, etc. Just Muppet Songs which is The Muppet Show, Muppets Tonight, Jim Henson Hour, Muppet Movies, Muppet Albums, and whatever other Muppet songs there are. I really don't feel like making a V-Chip Public Service Announcement Songs category. And Miscellaneous Muppet Songs is just sloppy and careless. -- Scott (talk) 18:05, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Thing is, like I said at the beginning, there's now Muppet Show and Muppets Tonight song categories, and redlinks for a Jim Henson Hour songs. Do we leave those as is, go ahead and create Jim Henson Hour songs, and just let it sit? And again, Emmet Otter. Why are Emmet Otter songs seperate from Muppet songs, but The Frog Prince and The Muppet Musicians of Bremen aren't? Frog Prince maybe, because Kermit plays a lead role, but Bremen and Emmet are about equivalent as far as Kermit content and not really being in the same "universe" as Muppet Show. Why does Muppets Tonight have its own songs category when there's actually as many or less songs in it than, say, a soundtrack listing to Muppet Treasure Island? If there's already seperate categories for two shows, why not the rest, and leave Muppet Songs, no renaming, for whatever doesn't fit, just like Muppet Characters includes folks not in other categories but we don't call it Muppet Misc Characters. Once again, I'm not advocating one thing or another, but I think we do need to talk about and consider what's being done with this category before activating the Jim Henson Hour songs category or creating a Muppet Sing Alongs category or whatnot. Andrew Leal (talk) 18:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Bremen and Emmet aren't Muppet songs. I would also say no to Frog Prince despite Kermit's presence. It's a different universe. And yes, JHH Songs should have just as much of a chance at a category as Muppet Show Songs. -- Scott (talk) 18:45, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

One possibility is to make Storybook Specials Songs, with the songs from Emmet, Bremen, Frog Prince, Hey Cinderella, Bunny Picnic and Christmas Toy. -- Danny (talk) 18:48, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

That's cute. -- Scott (talk) 18:49, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

There is one thing I've been wondering for awhile, before more categories (for Muppet Show Songs and so fourth) were added, and that is how we should categorize something as a Muppet Song, a Sesame Street Song, and so on. Obviously, we list them by productions, and if a character made a guest appearance in a non-Henson production and sang a sang in that production, we list the category for that song based on what the singer/ singers is/ are from. But I wondered what to do for certain crossover appearances. If a Sesame Street character appeared in an episode of The Muppet Show and sang a song without Muppet Show characters, would that count as a Sesame Street song, since it is sung by Sesame Street characters, or as a Muppet Song, since it was from The Muppet Show? I don't think there is a songs category for The Animal Show yet, but would the song that Sam the Eagle sang when he was a guest star be counted as a Muppet Song or an Animal Show song? I did list "Pass It On" as both a Muppet song and a Fraggle song, but that's because it was performed on both Fraggle Rock and A Muppet Family Christmas, not because the Fraggles basically sang it without any Muppet characters (yes, Kermit and Robin were there, but didn't sing much and were hardly noticible during the song) in a Muppet production. --Minor muppetz 04:08, 19 June 2006 (UTC)