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Episode Numbers, Take 4
I have been checking the copywright dates on the title cards for each episode, and it seems that how we have the seasons divided isn't entirely accurate. It seems that everything is accurate up until season 6, which it turns out has less episodes than we thought it did. Also, it seems that there are actually 8 seasons, not 7 as we previosly thought. Anyway, here is how the seasons are divided up according to my research:
- Season 1 (1984, 13 episodes)- "Noisy Neighbors" through "Good Clean Fun"
- Season 2 (1985, 13 episodes)- "Once Upon an Egg Timer" through "When you wish upon a Muppet"
- Season 3 (1986, 16 episodes)- "Pigerella" through "Back to the Nursery"
- Season 4 (1987, 18 episodes)- "Muppetland" through "Nanny's day off"
- Season 5 (1988, 13 episodes)- "Muppets not included" through "Bug-busting Babies"
- Season 6 (1989, 11 episodes)- "This old Nursery" through "Goosetown Babies"
- Season 7 (1990, 15 episodes)- "It's only Pretendo" through "In Search of the Bronzed Beetle"
- Season 8 (1991, 8 episodes)- "The Transcontinental Whoo-Whoo" through "Eight Flags Over the Nursery"
It makes perfect sense that "It's Only Pretendo" was the beginning of season 7, since a number of changes to the show began starting with that episode (The new commercial-break format, the new title card music, the old Rob Walsh music cues being dumped for the new ones by Hank Sorayon and Robert Irving ect.)FraggleFan 19:00, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
- Nice work, Dane! Copyright dates are good, but not the best evidence for the exact divisions. However, confirming the actual run of the series itself, i.e. how long it lasted on air, should be doable in theory. Wikipedia claims 1984-1990, which in fact would be exactly six broadcast seasons; the earliest version of the page claimed 1984-1992, which would be eight and which tallies with Jeff Lenburg's The Encyclopedia of Animated Cartoons (which isn't always the best source itself but generally accurate on dates). Looking through the history, in [this edit], it was changed, no doubt because of what Wikipedia has. Through Google books, I see Total Television by Alex McNeil (a solid reliable source, but my home copy is an out of date 1990 edition) states it last aired on CBS on September 5. 1992. It's known that later on it went into reruns on Fox but there's no source for there being any CBS reruns; it's also mildly possible, since the Fox package aired in 1991, that they did add some new episodes, but it seems to me that it does offer good support for their being eight seasons. Right now, it's rather difficult to be entirely certain, but your estimates are a mucha better fit than User:BeakerFreak's inexplicable moves (and it's clear exactly why and how you reached the conclusion, not just random). However, we still need a little more data before we do any massive reworking again, and new title card music etc. doesn't necessesarily mean a season change, though it could. Basically, the situation at present is this: We're pretty sure our list isn't perfectly accurate, but we need to be certain before we mess around again. Good work on checking the dates, though! That is the best evidence, assuming new episodes weren't produced midseason, combined with the CBS running times. It gives us some solid leads which can probably be verified, but it seems prudent to postpone another round of page moves until we can do just that. I just added a talkbox to bring some attention to your finds. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 21:18, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
1984 SEASON 1 Noisy Neighbors 500-01 2 Dental Hijinks 500-02 3 Who's Afraid ... Big Bad Dark 500-03 4 Raiders of the Lost Muppet 500-04 5 Scooter's Hidden Talent 500-05 6 The Case of the Missing Chicken 500-06 7 When You Grow Up? 500-07 8 8 Take-Away One Equals Panic 500-08 9 Close Encounters .. Frog Kind 500-09 10 Gonzo's Video Show 500-10 11 Fun Park Fantasies 500-11 12 From a Galaxy Far, Far Away 500-12 13 Good Clean Fun 500-13 1985 SEASON 14 Piggy's Hyperactivity Book 500-16 15 Once Upon An Eggtimer 500-17 16 The Great Cookie Robbery 500-18 17 Out of This World History 500-19 18 Snow White and the Seven Muppets500-20 19 1 Want My Muppet TV 500-21 20 Musical Muppets 500-22 21 What's New at the Zoo 500-23 22 The Great Muppet Cartoon Show 500-24 23 The Muppet Museum of Art 500-25 24 Fozzie's Last Laugh 500-26 25 By the Book 500-27 26 When You Wish Upon A Muppet 500-28 1986 SEASON 27 Pigerella 500-30 28 The Best Friend I Never Had 500-31 29 The Weirdo Zone 500-32 30 Muppets in Toyland 500-33 31 The Muppet Broadcasting Company 500-34 32 Kermit Goes to Washington 500-35 33 Fozzie's Family Tree 500-36 34 The Daily Muppet 500-37 35 Scooter's Uncommon Cold 500-38 36 Treasure Attic 500-39 37 Around the Nursery in 80 Days 500-40 38 Fine Feathered Enemies 500-41 39 Muppet Goose 500-42 40 Bad Luck Bear 500-43 41 Of Mice and Muppets 500-44 42 Back to the Nursery 500-45 43 Muppetland 500-46 44 Water Babies 500-47 45 The Incredible Shrinking Weirdo 500-48 46 Where No Muppet Has Gone Before 500-49 47 Journey .. Center .. Nursery 500-50 1987 SEASON 48 This Little Piggy .. Hollywood 6510-0001 49 My Muppet Valentine 6510-0002 50 Invasion of the Muppet Snackers 6510-0003 51 Twinkle Toe Muppets 6510-0004 52 Weirdo for the Prosecution 6510-0005 53 Muppet Island 6510-0006 54 The Frog Who Knew Too Much 6510-0007 55 Beach Blanket Babies 6510-0008 56 Old MacKermit Had a Farm 6510-0009 57 Adventures in Muppet-Sitting 6510-0010 58 The House That Muppets Built 6510-0011 59 Masquerading Muppets 6510-0012 60 Nanny's Day Off 6510-0013 1988 SEASON 61 Muppets Not Included 6511-0001 62 Beauty and the Schnoz 6511-0002 63 The Pig Who Would Be Queen 6511-0003 64 Is There a Muppet in the House? 6511-0004 65 Slipping Beauty 6511-0005 66 Muppet Baby Boom 6511-0006 67 Scooter by Any Other Name 6511-0007 68 He's a Wonderful Frog 6511-0008 69 Elm Street Babies 6511-0009 70 Plan 8 From Outer Space 6511-0010 71 Junkyard Muppets 6511-0011 72 The Air Conditioner ... Galaxy 6511-0012 1989 SEASON: 73 Bug-Busting Babies 6511-0013 74 This Old Nursery 6511-0014 75 And Now a Word from Our Muppets 6511-0015 76 Six to Eight Weeks 6511-0016 77 The Green Ranger 6511-0017 78 Not Necessarily the Babies 6511-0018 79 Comic Capers 6511-0019 80 Faster Than a Speeding Weirdo 6511-0020 81 Skeeter and the Wolf 6511-0021 82 Romancing the Weirdo 6512-1001 83 New Adventures of Kermo Polo 6512-1002 84 Goosetown Babies 6512-1003 1990 SEASON 85 It's Only Pretendo 6513-1001 86 Quoth the Weirdo 6513-1002 87 Operators Are Standing By 6513-1003 88 Babes in Troyland 6513-1004 89 Puss'N'Boots'N'Babies 6513-1005 90 The Muppets of Invention 6513-1006 91 A Punchline to the Stomach 6513-1007 92 Muppet Babies ... Next Gen 6513-1008 93 Buckskin Babies 6513-1009 94 Sing a Song of Superheroes 6513-1010 95 Gonzee's Playhouse Channel 6513-1011 96 Kermit Pan 6513-1012 97 Whose Tale Is It Anyway? 6513-1013 98 At The Movies 6513-1014 99 In Search of the Bronze Beetle 6512-1004 1991 SEASON 100 The Transcontinental Whoo-Whoo 6514-1001 101 Get Me to the Perch on Time 6514-1002 102 Bearly Alone Babies 6514-1003 103 Remote Controlled Cornballs 6514-1004 104 Nice to Have Gnome You 6514-1005 105 Happy Birthday, Uncle Piggy 6514-1006 106 Hats, Hats, Hats 6514-1007 107 Eight Flags Over My Nanny 6514-1008
- Aha! That's final confirmation, then (but I'm glad you had the list, Scott, since it shows the problem of relying solely on copyright date). In that case, it definitely looks like we can do a renumbering without fear of having to do so again later on (and if anybody does any random moves, we'll spot and fix them right away). Once again, the wonders of Wiki in action. Yay. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 22:06, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
- I was going to reorder these, but I'm confused. Are we simply resetting the season number based on the henson production list and ignoring the airdate groupings? The earliest difference is actually season 3/4. The break in airdate is definitely between Episode 316: Back to the Nursery and Episode 401: Muppetland; according to this list the production season break is between Episode 405: Journey to the Center of the Nursery and Episode 406: This Little Piggy Went to Hollywood which aired one week after the other. Similarly, this list has Episode 513: Bug-Busting Babies grouped into production season 6, even though it aired with the rest of season 5, nine months before the next season 6 episode.
- If we're ignoring the airdate groupings for the season numbers, do we also want to ignore the airdates as an internal order within each season and go entirely with production order? -- Wendy (talk) 00:52, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Episode Numbers reverted
After looking at the Henson.com listing of the episodes, I summed up the numbers for each episode according to the original article titles and from the numbers on Henson.com; even I don't know what source Beakerfreak was using (he probably did leave Muppet Wiki anyhow). I agree with the original numbers Muppet Wiki had before the moves. I also noticed a duplicate listing for Episode 708 - "At the Movies" was originally Episode 707 before Beakerfreak moved it. And to sum all this up, I'm pretty sure that the pre-moved titles were more correct. Does anyone have any concerns before I move them back to their titles? Matt H. (talk) 23:12, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
- I'd also like to tell how I summed it up (matching with Henson.com):
- Season 1: 13 episodes = 13
- Season 2: 13 episodes = 26
- Season 3: 16 episodes = 42
- Season 4: 18 episodes = 60
- Season 5: 13 episodes = 73
- Season 6: 18 episodes = 91
- Season 7: 16 episodes = 107 (Beakerfreak claims that "Whose Tale Is It, Anyway?" is the 97th episode. That would be the 6th episode in Season 7, since "A Punch Line to the Tummy" would be episode 618. 73 + 18 = 91. 91 + 16 = 107. 107 is the last number on Henson.com)
- Yeah, if you could put it back to where it was, that would be great! Can you post the Henson.com listing? I was looking for that, and couldn't find it -- it seems like it would be helpful. -- Danny (talk) 23:57, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
- Yeah, we blocked User:Beakerfreak93 for being nonresponsive and otherwise counterproductive. So any attempts to clean up the mess would indeed be appreciated (as would a cut and paste or Archive.org link to the Henson list if you can, as Danny mentioned). Thanks for tackling this! -- Andrew Leal (talk) 00:50, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
Episode Numbering, again
Brad opened up this topc for discussion a year and a half ago, but there was no talk tag so I don't think it got any attention. Beakerfreak93's been moving the numbering for some episodes, so it's a good time to talk about it. I don't remember where we got the initial list of episodes from, but my guess would be TV.com which was probably TVTome.com back then. As we've discovered over the years, many of the episode titles we were using have been wrong as proven by title cards mostly provided thankfully to a healthy supply of episodes on YouTube. So it's very likely that we still have errors abound with titles and numbers. I don't know what Beakerfreak93's source is, but the most authoritative source I can find is the episode listing on Henson.com which apparently includes the correct order, but no split for seasons. I tried putting them in a table and figuring it out, but our category shows that each season had a different number of episodes, so there's no science there. I'd go by the airdates we have listed on the pages themselves, but there's no real reliable source there either. Anyone have any thoughts on how else we can track down the real airdates? That would seem to be the only way to figure out where the seasons begin and end. Unless there are discrepancies with production numbering which some sources favor over airdate and vice versa. Is there a good database available where we can look up TV Guide (or some other publication) for broadcast listings? —Scott (talk) 18:05, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- TV Guide wouldn't help much, since they never noted which episodes aired for Saturday morning stuff. However, one factor which may not have been taken into consideration (and one where TV Guide would certainly help) is the fact that from 1986 and for several seasons thereafter, it aired in an hour block, with one episode leading directly into the next (the "Go bye bye" becoming Gonzo or another character telling the viewers to stay tuned). So that affects the airedates. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 19:19, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- Here's an idea: why don't we re-number them according to the Henson.com list? It's not the way we do any other show on the wiki, but given the ambiguity with which we've treated the Muppet Babies episode numbers and seasons, it makes the most sense. There's really no definitive source for airdates and when a season started and how many episodes were produced for each versus in what season block they aired. We've taken all that stuff from lists that we've proven over and over again have been heavily flawed and have constantly contradicted each other. The Henson list is the only definitive source we've come across. —Scott (talk) 06:39, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- It's a possibility, but the first few seasons, at least, can definitely be pinned down. Seasons One and Two are accurate, but after that, one gets into issues. We really need more than YouTube excerpts, but with the *end credits*, with copyright notices and other specifics one can pin down what belonged to which season (the cast credits, for example, as was common for most animated series at the time save Disney, were only altered once per season and the same ones used for every show, even if the actors or characters weren't in that episode, as with additional voices; Season 7 added Baby Bean Bunny and Statler and Waldorf to the credits; the only portion of the end credits tailored to the episode was the space to note sources and copyright info for the film footage). Airdates, except for the first episode, I'd say dispense with entirely unless corroborated by a reliable source (not IMDb, TV.com, etc.), since they seem to have been arrived at based on guesswork. It is a mess, and BeakerFreak's changes made it worse (resulting in duplicates, double redirects, and so on), but I'd rather take the time to at least see which seasons/episodes can be verified and which have the most issues before starting all over from scratch. Plus, Scott, if you still have contact with Karen Falk or someone, it should be possible to check, since I'm sure there's documentation beyond what they chose to put up on the website. Henson.com seems to have treated the animated/Saturday morning shows differently; their Dog City guide likewise just lists the episode title, with no season breakdowns (those were supplied by Nelvana's website, combined with end credit dates and so on). -- Andrew Leal (talk) 07:55, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I started thinking, wouldn't it be great if for each episode we mention what happens in the ending "Go bye bye" sequences after the credits? We could list them in each episode page, depending on what we know or remember (there are only a few that I can specifically remember what episodes they are from). Or, if not in the episodes themselves, maybe there can be a seperate list page (perhaps in the Filmographies category) that lists them all, and what episodes they are from. It would probably belong in the filmographies category, as it would be weird to have a "Muppet Babies Sketches" page. But what do you all think? --Minor muppetz 01:14, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- I think just listing each sequence in the appropriate episode page would be enough, seeing as that's how the Muppet Show episode pages work (with listing Gonzo's bit at the end of the theme song). By the way, nice idea. Chunk 17:10, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- Okay, I'll start describing the "Go bye-bye" scenes at the end of the episodes that I can remember them being in. --Minor muppetz 04:17, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Where does the episode numbering use come from -- production order? airing sequence (and in what market)? official Henson company listings? Generally excepted fan delusions? Can anyone explain why episode "so-and-so" is dubbed episode "112" and not "106" or "201")? -- Brad D. (talk) 00:44, 3 November 2006 (UTC)