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Similar to the old discussion, I've begun thinking about whether every film with Creature Shop involvement deserves its own page. For all purposes, I'd agree that any films which include the Shop's animatronics, major prosthetics (like on The English Patient), and significant digital character animation deserve solo pages. But I'm increasingly finding a large number of very varied films for which the Creature Shop is simply credited as "Digital Effects," and in many cases, those effects appear to be mostly matteing and so forth. I'm thinking of films like Gosford Park, Around the World in 80 Days, Batman Begins (involvement already noted on Batman, but in credits, listed as the seventh and last effects company, with absolutely no individual credits, often an indicator that the company mostly supplied touch-ups), and so on. I'm not sure myself in such cases, and thought it would be worth discussing before I or others create pages for these movies. Should they be listed on the Wiki? Most certainly, but I'm wondering if a blanket "Creature Shop Digital Effects" article, or something of that sort, would be more appropriate for projects that not only didn't involve puppetry, but where the Shop's contributions are vague and where they weren't even the principal effects house. I dunno. My main hesitation, really, is that by our definition, any actor who appeared in a Creature Shop movie, no matter what level of involvement, is a Creature Shop actor. That's generally fine, and many of these films already have actor connections, but I'm not so sure about adding, say, Jackie Chan (Around the World in 80 Days) or Bob Balaban (Gosford Park) to those categories, on such slim basis. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 02:51, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
- Yeah, I agree. I think create one page on movies that have used Creature Shop for digital effects, and don't create pages for the actors and everybody. The interesting thing would be to see if we could find out exactly what the Creature Shop did for Gosford Park, etc. -- Danny (talk) 10:59, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
This category contains two different kinds of movies: movies produced by the Jim Henson Company that use creatures created by the Creature Shop instead of Muppets (such as Dark Crystal), and movies produced by other companies for which the Creature Shop created creatures or effects (such as Hitchhiker's). It seems to me that these should be two separate categories.
I just created the Jim Henson Pictures Movies category, which is intended for movies like Buddy or Good Boy (I created it so MirrorMask, which the Creature Shop was not involved with, would have a category). Should Dark Crystal go there? -- Erik
- That's a good idea; there should be more of a distinction. Maybe instead of Jim Henson Pictures Movies, just make it Henson Movies? Then it would include Dark Crystal and Labyrinth too. -- Danny Toughpigs 21:32, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
- I didn't really like the name I came up with, either. But we already have a Henson Films category, for stuff like Timepiece and The Cube. Ebrowne 23:03, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
- Hmmm. Then my other thought would be to call those Creature Shop Movies, and make a different category for movies with Creature Shop effects. If Mirrormask isn't a Creature Shop movie, then what is it? Who did the effects for that? -- Danny Toughpigs 23:21, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
- Never mind, I just looked at the Mirrormask page. I think it could still qualify as an honorary Creature Shop Movie, since it's a sequel to Labyrinth. It's Creature Shop in spirit. -- Danny Toughpigs 23:23, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
- But it's not a sequel, it's just sorta similar. My mind rebels at a movie with absolutely no connection to the Creature Shop being in the Creature Shop category. And MirrorMask probably won't be the only movie the Jim Henson Company will make without any Muppets or Creatures.
- Here are my suggestions. First we create a "Creature Shop Effects" category, which we can apply to any production (movie, miniseries, etc.) that the Creature Shop worked on. We get rid of the "Henson Films" category. We create a "Shorts" category under Movies for all the shorts, like Timepiece. Then we create an "Other Movies" category (still don't like the name) and all the full-length stuff from "Henson Films" and the JHC movies from the "Creature Shop Movies" category, as well as MirrorMask, get moved there. The "Creature Shop Movies" category goes away. -- Erik Ebrowne 01:44, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Here's what I suggest:
- "Creature Shop Movies" - for any and all films (or mini-series) that used the Creature Shop for their effects (Dark Crystal, Flintstones, Labyrinth, Hitchhiker's Guide...)
- "Henson Movies" - for any and all films produced by the Jim Henson Company (MirrorMask, Good Boy...)
- "Muppet Movies"" - for any and all Muppet films (The Muppet Movie, Muppet Treasure Island....)
- "Sesame Street Movies" - for any and all Sesame Street films (Follow that Bird...)
- "Fraggle Rock Movies" - for the Fraggle Rock movie (The Fraggle Rock Movie...)
- "Henson Shorts" - for all the Henson short films (TimePiece, Baker Films...)
--BradFraggle 02:30, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
- I generally agree with the direction. I know that Scott will have some input about this. I don't know if he'll get to log on tonight. He'll have ideas about it; he's good like that. -- Danny Toughpigs 02:42, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
- I suggest that "Henson Movies" by your definition be called "Henson Company Films."
- Also, "Henson Shorts" doesn't work for the entire category as some of his early works weren't shorts, like The Cube and Youth 68. Basically, "Henson Films" is good the way it is so long as "Henson Films" can be defined in the text of the category page. -- Scarecroe 17:48, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
- There you go, I thought Scott would have an idea. So how about Creature Shop Movies, Henson Company Movies, and Henson Films? Erik and Brad, what do you think? -- Danny Toughpigs 18:05, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
- I think that sounds like a good system. "Creature Shop Movies" and "Henson Company Movies" may have some individual films overlap with each other (and some of other movie categories) but that's ok. I think that "Muppet Movies", "Sesame Street Movies", "Fraggle Rock Movies", "Creature Shop Movies", "Henson Company Movies", and "Henson Films" will cover it...for now at least. -- BradFraggle 19:21, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
- Sounds good to me. --Erik Ebrowne 21:37, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
- Great! -- Danny Toughpigs 21:54, 19 January 2006 (UTC)