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Okay, here we go. For now, as I said before, I'm dealing with Creature Shop-effects films, as we term them, not the Henson/Creature Shop ones (if we want to delete those, it will be easier when things are cleared up anyway). We should check "What links here" for all deletion candidates, naturally. Any that one questions can be added here or asked (I've closely watched things like Alice in Wonderland and The Odyssey and such for Wiki research, so I'm solid on who interacted or didn't in most of those unless noted, and often the pictures reveal as much). With some of the keeps, we might either try to clarify further in text or swap pics later but that's not the first priority (it helps that on people like Alan Stanford, the picture makes the connection obvious right away).
- Delete (no interaction per guidelines)
Jane Asher Alan Bates Peter Bayliss John Bennett Nick Brimble Steve Coogan Nicola Cowper Julian Curry Vernon Dobtcheff Peter Eyre Peter Gallagher(bye bye, eyebrows) Steven Gilborn Daniel Gillies Rutger Hauer Ciarán Hinds Wolf Kahler Jeroen Krabbé Burt Kwouk(awww, Cato) Phyllida Law Christopher Lee(awww again) Clive Merrison Michael J. Pollard(aww thrice) Liz Smith John Turner Kevin Whately Robert Wisden Peter Woodthorpe Harris Yulin
- De-tag (articles have other reasons for being her)
- Timothy Bateson (qualifies as voice actor for Labyrinth, but movie actor for Merlin?
- Ken Dodd (per image evidence of royal performance justifying presence; though Alice is very Creature heavy, Dodd's scenes are isolated, keep label anyway?)
Richard Griffiths(labeled for being in 1st Harry Potter movie, with isolated Creature Shop troll) Griff Rhys Jones(co-hosted special with StoryTeller's dog, but in Pinocchio, sole scene was with Gepetto only) Uma Thurman Michaël Youn Dweezil Zappa
- Joseph Barbera (cameo in crowd scene with Creatures, exec producer; a probable delete)
- Peter Boyle (in tiger operating scene?)
- Pat Crawford Brown (page stays because she is a Creature Shop Voice Actor, but did she interact in Jack Frost?)
- Lacey Chabert (think Creature Shop designed Lost in Space suits, but sole connection)
- Jason Flemyng (I think he interacts, but need to rewatch)
- Paul Giamatti (in scene with talking cat; Creature Shop?)
- William Hanna (cameo in crowd scene with Creatures, exec producer; a probable delete)
- Simon Jones (cameo in Hitchhiker's has him talking to Creature-included crew but scenes are intercut; I like the trivia note about his son being one of The Kids though; keep maybe?)
- Andy Lawrence (likely delete, but ugh, I don't want to try to get through Jack Frost again!)
- John Malkovich (were creatures in his one scene?)
- Bill Nighy
- Kyla Pratt
- Richard Roundtree (any Ape interaction in George of the Jungle??)
- Tai (yes, check on the elephant)
I'd been meaning to bring this up for ages, and Nate gave me a little reminder/nudge a few weeks back. The issue is who actually qualifies as a "Creature Shop Movie Actor," anyone who was in a Creature Shop Movie or just those whose participation has Creature Shop relevance, akin to the by now firm guidelines for interaction we have on Category:Celebrities. This has been mentioned here and there, but always either on an individual article basis or in relation to other issues, and so has been swept under the rug. Plus the "anybody in a Creature Shop Movie" was the unofficial rule since the early days of the Wiki, so it always takes work to go back and examine stuff like that. And it's a fun way to make connections (pruning this will have a major impact on Doctor Who for one).
I'm fairly fond of this section, and early on, one of the issues was just the difficulty in defining interaction. But now, considering how we've clearly defined what qualifies a celebrity for Muppet interaction, it definitely seems like a cheat not to do so for Creatures, which are a rung below on our chart anyway. It will also help in knowing who to redlink (we've only fairly recently stopped redlinking or started unlinking everyone in a Creature Shop film).
So, first some broad suggestions/divisions, and then depending on how people feel, I'll list the likely candidates for deletion or possible grey areas. Also, for the moment, I'm looking at what we call "films with Creature Shop effects," those where the Creature Shop was basically an outsourced effects house. We've placed new limits on coverage of Henson Company films too, but right now, most of those few films don't pose a problem, since it is a closer link (and usually, we've restrained ourselves, so for example, every bit player from Buddy doesn't have a page anyway, just either those who worked with the Creature gorilla or are otherwise notable, but looking at it, there don't seem to be any exceptions there). When we get down to the actual listing, some may be tricky, as far as double checking/determining if the actors in question had any Creature interaction/involvement.
Most Creature Shop-effects films can be broadly divided into categories.
- Those with a large supporting cast of multiple Creature puppets, used through the movie and thus seen with most of the cast at some point: The Flintstones, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
- Those with one or more star Creature characters, interacting at least with the main human supporting cast: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and sequel, The Adventures of Pinocchio
- Those with Creature Shop-supplied *costumes* or prosthetics/animatronics for human cast members. So clearly the actors in the costumes/make-up count (the latter especially are honorary creatures, so to speak), but probably not those who just share scenes with them: The English Patient, The Phantom
- Those with multiple Creatures but interaction limited to one or a handful of human stars: Where the Wild Things Are, Babe, George of the Jungle
- Those with maybe one Creature and interaction limited to certain actors: Loch Ness, Snow Queen, The Producers (the pigeons and Will Ferrell)
- Those with a very minor Creature or Creature stand-in, interaction can be hard to place if at all: The Ladykillers, The Indian in the Cupboard, The Darjeeling Limited, and pretty much the bulk of what the Creature Shop's non digital arm does these days
- Those with digital Creatures (as actual characters), major or minor, often for a specific sequence only: Arabian Nights, Jason and the Argonauts
- And by our old standards, we already discounted all actors who only appeared in movies with vague "digital effects," not characters but either undefined FX work (probably on clouds or water and such) or defined but minor or post-production (digital cloth in Batman Begins, wire removal, etc.) The same would apply to movies with physical props, not characters.
The first three categories are usually clearest or ones where the exceptions (actors in prologues, isolated scenes, anyone but the guy with the Creature Shop burns or arm in English Patient) are clear. The bottom three are also usually easy to prune, it's the middle areas mostly where some double checking will be needed (and that will take time and patience, since not all of these projects are easy to get through, even for Wiki mining!) And any movies in those categories with few to know problems but with redlinks can be adjusted accordingly.
I had half thought whether "repeat offenders" (those in more than one Creature Shop effects movie) would be worth keeping, regardless of interaction, but that might still be a cheat (though it increases the interest just slightly). So I'm throwing it out there but don't mind if it's rejected. For that matter, a final thing on categorization. Obviously these rules don't affect actors who already have a solid connection, like Nathan Lane or Rick Moranis or whoever, but in the lower category areas (a minor creature mostly in the background or isolated scene/sequence), is it still worth actually categorizing them as a Creature Shop actor? Worth pointing out on the page, but it feels kind of odd to include folks like Marilyn Sokol or Mel Brooks for The Producers (especially since Brooks is only on-camera for a flash end cameo himself). That one might be easier to just let be, though, in terms of headaches as to how to categorize. Clearer guidelines for inclusion/deletion are the first step.
- Okay. Here's my two cents (finally). I agree with a lot of it. I'm not to keen on keeping the repeat offenders. So I'd vote for no on that. And I'm actually going to vote no to include folks like Mel Brooks and Marilyn Sokol as Creature Shop actors as well, as I feel it should be limited to those actors who specifically and directly interact with the creature (digital or real). After combing through the pages it just doesn't seem right to include Roger Bart for The Producers or Morgan Freeman for Batman when they just happen to be in a movie with a creature (or effects as the case with Freeman). It's much more relevent to the wiki to have them on here for their direct connections on Sesame English and Out to Lunch, repectively. Beside, they'll still be a connection on the movie page, so their involvement on the film is recognized. -- Nate (talk) 15:19, June 24, 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with everything said above. This is a good set of guidelines -- complicated, but appropriate for the variety of examples. I agree with Nate on not including repeat offenders, and not listing Mel Brooks etc as a Creature Shop Actor. Andrew -- you rock for thinking this through in such detail! -- Danny (talk) 16:15, June 24, 2010 (UTC)
- Okay, just getting back to this. Have a lot to do elsewhere today and tomorrow, but with both Nate and Danny in agreement, I think we've reached a consensus and can start clean-up (Nate already has for pages that we're keeping but where "Creature Shop Actor" status came from being in a movie with digital effects or creatures in one scene). I'll miss some of these folks and, as mentioned, a *lot* of clean-up will be needed in connections, but it's worth it in the long-run. It means if someone *does* want to create a page for a person who fits these guidelines (I've been waffling on Willem Dafoe for ages, they can), and it makes it clearer to us who to redlink and not to (which is often how the questionables were created anyway; a well-meaning, often new user sees a redlink and wants to fill it). So I'll start the clean-up list below, but anyone feel free to add. Basically we're looking at three types: delete, detag, and investigate (i.e. it's not clear from the current page if they interacted or not). -- Andrew Leal (talk) 15:33, July 2, 2010 (UTC)