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Notability again

Okay, we last discussed this four years ago, but this category is still a bit of a mess. Right now, just glancing, three that again strike me as not worth having their own pages (our "notability" guidelines for justifying a page aren't just how well known an award is, but is there any useful info *not* found in a list of awards on the page for the show, song, or person). I don't mind noting the Global Media Awards nomination, we've done that, but Muppets.com didn't win, *and* that was the first and last time they had that specific award entity anyway. Similarly, I don't think we need a page for every local critics group that nominated The Muppets. We have Sesame Street: Awards and Honors and Jim Henson: Awards and Honors and specific sections on other pages, so

And just a reminder, we *definitely* don't need redlinks on pages for people with no Muppet connection because they were also nominated for that award or were in competition, nor do we need to list every show that ever was nominated or won a given award (even when we have pages for them). When it's notable enough as a connections list, we have something like Academy Award winners, because it's interesting and notable to see the year by year breakdown (we don't do that for the Emmys just because far too many people have won or been nominated for Emmys and worked with the Muppets; Oscar winners are rarer), and a short connections list of people is fine, but shows, which are usually here just as references or for Muppet mentions, don't belong (obviously if the show won or was nominated for a Muppet cross-over or something, that would count). I've been doing clean-up on some of those.

Right now, outside of Global Media Awards, Satellite Awards (three noms for The Muppets, no wins; already listed on other pages) and local-only awards like Georgia Film Critics Association Awards and Sierra Awards aren't useful for us; while I don't think they're crucial nominations or wins period, I'm not asking for us not to mention them on the show pages, just no solo pages. With nothing beyond one to three noms/wins and no appearance by Muppets, is just pointlessly repetitive at this stage. I'm unsure of Kidscreen Awards (anything there belongs on the Sesame awards page, save one nomination for Me and My Monsters which gets one page coverage anyway).

Looking at some of the others which Danny mentioned back in 2009, I'd also soft support deletion Telly Awards deletion, but there's a slightly longer gap and possibly more history to get into, but we haven't found it in four years or more and again they're listed. Young Artist Award needs major clean-up but there are enough awards listed over a span of time to make it a useful list in my opinion. Also not sure what to do with aniBOOM Awards 4 Sesame Street, which was really a contest and the winners were showcased on the show (the article is still mostly written as if it hasn't happened yet). -- Andrew Leal (talk) 00:40, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, absolutely. I agree with everything Andrew said. I think the core requirement should be that a Muppet or Muppet-adjacent person showed up to receive the award. I'd say Verleihung der Goldenen Kamera is the kind of page we want to have.
The Georgia Film Critics Association Awards is exactly what we don't want -- a local critics award that nobody cares about, and The Muppets didn't even win! :) I'm gonna delete that one right now. I think we can prune this category mostly just using common sense. -- Danny 17:46, September 21, 2013 (UTC)
Oh, looking back at this -- I deleted Young Artist Award because it doesn't even really make sense -- if the award honors young people in the arts, then why are the Muppets nominated? I'm not sure about Kidscreen Awards. I think Telly Awards can probably go, unless someone can explain what the heck it is. -- Danny 17:55, September 21, 2013 (UTC)
This might help. -- Ken (talk) 04:07, September 22, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the clean-up, Danny. Yeah, apparently Young Artist Award (which dates to 1979 and is under our radar but semi-notable) also has had awards just for kids or family-themed films or series, but they haven't done that in several years, and even some of the early nominations make no sense (Muppet Movie was nominated for best movie "featuring youth," but there *are* no kids or youths in the movie). They were all nominations save two (Muppet Babies and Bear in the Big Blue House) or else for actors in Creature Shop-effects movies, and most of those were just nominations as well. So yeah, no real loss. The only page that linked to it was Muppets from Space, so I unlinked it.

Although in fixing some redlinks, I looked at the lists of awards in articles. I originally said I didn't mind them being there, but now I think I've changed my mind. Take "Man or Muppet." I took out all the "nominated by such and such local critics association" mentions, and that leaves the Oscar (already noted in the opening) and then three local awards. I think even the wins aren't really needed there since only the Oscar win was a newsworthy event. The list of awards on the movie page includes all of those, and we could probably trim that as well, but it's less of an issue there.

So I would move to take out any nominations for local awards; it's a big deal to be nominated for an Oscar or Emmy or Grammy, even if you don't win. Not that big a deal to win a local award but I could sort of understand listing them for completeness sake, which has happened on other pages so long as they're not duplicated beyond the one project page. Even Jim Henson: Awards and Honors has "Fairfax Jubilaires, Fairfax, VA, Award to Sam and Friends for their contribution to the Society for the Preservation and Encouragement of Barber Shop Quartet Singing in America." The obvious difference being that this tells us a little something about awareness of the Muppets in that early period (for a mostly locally/regionally seen little show compared to modern newspaper/critics awards for a big budget wide release movie). Plus the award itself is pretty amusing (no no, the puppetry societies don't care about you, but the barber shop people adore you!)

It's pretty pointless just to note a nomination for these local entities though. I'd also kind of like to take out the Golden Tomato Award (which is from Rotten Tomatoes) for "Best Reviewed Kids/Family Film." It's a measure of the fact that it got the best reviews overall compared only to other kids/family movies, and that just feels kind of sad in itself. The Muppets has a lot to be proud of without including that, but maybe that's just my reaction to things changing, since any award for being "best reviewed" strikes me as odd. And it wasn't even an actual award ceremony or anything, just a list here based on getting a "96% fresh" rating. To me, that's like noting IMDb ranks of Muppet movies.

When I have time, I'll see if I can find any specifics on the Telly Awards. The 1990 one is for a fairly interesting project, the Better World PSAs, and might even have had someone accept it or Jim Henson send in a response, even if he didn't attend, or whatever. I doubt that's likely for DVD bonus feature or From the Balcony. If we don't find anything, I'd say dump.

I'd be fine with losing Kidscreen myself, since it's mostly just stuff to be migrated to Sesame Street: Awards and Honors (which hasn't been updated beyond 2011). Mostly, looking at this issue, it reminds me of a principle which always bears repeating: that just because something is true or exists doesn't mean it's notable or interesting to read about. A good comparison might be when we decided on notability for Crew or the fact that our credit lists on pages don't (aside from some early projects, where you could actually do that, like Time Piece), list every single person in the actual on-screen credits. It's not a knock on the critics associations themselves or their awards (I admit from me, it's a knock on Rotten Tomatoes, but that's me only). Just means without Muppet appearances or Roscoe Orman or whoever showing up, they're not interesting to read. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 04:54, September 22, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I absolutely agree. If the award isn't interesting, we don't have to list it just for completeness sake. -- Danny 20:18, September 30, 2013 (UTC)
Done. I went ahead and cleaned all those awards out (even the specific critic group wins, but there were hardly any of those; I may paste the list here just for future reference for the ultra-curious) on The Muppets (2011). For now, I did keep a couple non-newspaper/critics awards which at least went to specific people for achievement (Comedy Awards and Golden Reel), and specified who actually chooses and puts out the award (for context and makes it a little more interesting). Any of the other smaller circle awards were for song over and over, and one or two nominations for screenplay anyway. I mainly kept Golden Reel just because the actual film editors' society runs it, and the editors on Muppets actually won, so it seemed worth it. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 22:38, October 3, 2013 (UTC)
Awesome, I'm glad it's all cleaned up! -- Danny 22:43, October 3, 2013 (UTC)

Worth an article?

"Sesame Workshop Receives Four CINE Awards": "Sesame Workshop, the nonprofit organization behind Sesame Street, has been honored with four CINE Golden Eagle awards. Sesame Tree, Northern Ireland’s version of Sesame Street, was recognized for its episode “The Share Necessities.” The three other awards are for the Workshop’s Educational Outreach Initiatives which include Here for You: Helping Children Cope with Serious Illness; Let's Get Ready! Planning Together for Emergencies; and Talk, Listen, Connect: Deployments, Homecomings, Changes. The international CINE awards aims to recognize excellence in the production of film, television, video and new media. Sesame Tree was recognized in the “Children’s Programs” category, while the Outreach Initiatives were recognized in the Non- telecast “Children’s and Entertainment” category." -- Zanimum 01:19, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Sesame Workshop mentions in on their Facebook group. -- Zanimum 21:43, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Notable awards

There are a couple awards listed in this category that I think may not be that notable; I'm wondering if we should try to define this category.

I'd suggest that the standard is that a Muppet (or Muppet-type person) has to show up at the awards in order for an award to be notable for us. That would include the Academy Awards, Emmy Awards, Daytime Emmy Awards, Grammy Awards, The Television Academy Hall of Fame, and even minor stuff like the Common Ground Awards and the Environmental Media Awards. I'm going to assume Kevin Clash showed up for the Image Awards, and the Sesame Park folks for the Gemini Awards.

The ones that I'm wondering about are:

As an example of why I think these may not be notable, the TV-DVD Awards are run by Home Media Magazine, and based on online voting. I've never even heard of Home Media Magazine, so I have to assume that they don't have a televised awards ceremony. I know that TV Guide and the Hollywood Reporter are sort of involved, so it's a real thing, but I think if you go down this road, you end up with the "Awesome Awards" given out by a random blogger.

So I think having an actual Muppet-type person showing up or taking note of the award could be a good standard for what deserves to be noted on the wiki. What do other folks think? -- Danny@Wikia (talk) 03:42, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Do we know Muppet-type people haven't shown up at these? Someone, as I just added to the article, did show up at the Webby Awards to make the traditional 5-word acceptance speech. And a lot of the nominees show up to the Young Artist Awards, though they are all regular actors, not Muppeteers. -- Zanimum 17:47, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
The TV-DVD Awards with TV Guide has just become less. TV Guide Network, TVGuide.com, and TVShowsonDVD (the site that works with the awards) are now part of Lionsgate. They'll retain the name "TV Guide", but not actually be run by them. -- Zanimum 17:51, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Nick just created another Awards page -- Global Media Awards -- that I would also question. I think that's a good example of the kind of thing I was hoping to avoid by starting this discussion. Anybody can announce awards. -- Danny@Wikia (talk) 18:17, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
While I agree it would be silly to create a page for "Bob's Blog's Top 10 Movies of the Year" Award, these are all notable awards (albeit not always the most well-known awards). However these have all be "endorsed" or touted by official Muppet/Henson sources. Muppets.com and From the Balcony both showed off their nominations/wins on their sites. The Jim Henson Company released an official press release bragging about Fraggle Rocks win at the TV-DVD Awards [1]. The new Muppets.com touted their Global Media Awards nomination in their news ticker. Others have appeared in blurbs on DVD cases or have been mentioned in passing in press releases or company achievements[2]. The studios care about these as if they were "real" awards (even if most people have never heard of them). They may not have televised award ceremonies - they may not be the Oscars, Emmys, Grammys, Golden Globes or among the top 10 (or top 20) most well known entertainment awards... but I think they are noteworthy. -- Brad D. (talk) 18:26, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
If that's the case, then it would be good to include those sources in the articles. It doesn't necessarily mean that we find them notable, but it would help. -- Danny@Wikia (talk) 18:34, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
As an aside on this discussion, I don't see how Muppets.com and From the Balcony boasting about the nominations/wins justifies a separate page for the award itself, when all we really say about them is that they gave awards to the aforementioned. From the Balcony has that all covered in its own section. Blurbs in DVD cases and press releases are also likely to latch onto any award, even the minor ones or those that aren't juried at all but awarded as long as you submit (which Henson did with the parent's award on The Blue Elephant DVD). So those don't prove anything one way or another. Basically, if it's just the one award and from a fairly minor or new body, I don't see why it can't simply be mentioned on the relevant page for what was nominated, and in most cases, it is. It's not a knock against the award necessarily, but there's just not much to say about it. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 22:42, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

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